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[NJW2000]

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ETA: I'm not offended by your smarm, but your total lack of theory of mind makes me sad. Let me be totally clear: I am a fatalist. I consider the current observed reality to be the morally necessary outcome, and therefore every single detail that went into making the world the way it is was morally right. You don't have to "like" it, but it was always going to be this way. Personally, getting upset that reality is the way it is sounds like an awful way to spend your time to me, but it's not my problem.

Don't be sad about it, it was always going to happen~

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I'm not trying to be smarmy, I have no idea if you're trolling or not. I suppose the polite thing to do is to assume not.
I mean, there are many replies to you, about the conventions for using moral talk in political discussions, the nuanced relationship between fatalism, determinism and free will, the non-necessity of free will for morality, the purpose of moral talk, or the difference between complaining about the present and making choices about the future, but I won't bother with all that, as I really can't be arsed to argue philosophy with internet randos. I am sometimes upset by various facts about the world - that's all there is to be upset about, after all. I sometimes think about whether an action hurts people or not before I do it - this process is part of what determines my action. If you think this means I'm wasting my time, or know nothing about philosophy of mind, so be it - I'm willing to accept that as predetermined.

Something I did mean to ask here was how much interest or awareness there is in the US regarding the UK potentially breaking the Good Friday Agreement, and whether that would be likely to raise problems in US-UK trade deals. I know it's not necessarily something the average US citizen knows about, but there are still a lot of Americans with ties to Ireland, with potentially a lot of leverage.

I could only find one major US figure speaking about it here, but I'm wondering if you guys think Biden or Trump would make trouble for the UK in post-Brexit trade deals if the issue blew up?

[Maximum Spin]

I'm not trying to be smarmy, I have no idea if you're trolling or not. I suppose the polite thing to do is to assume not.
I mean, there are many replies to you, about the conventions for using moral talk in political discussions, the nuanced relationship between fatalism, determinism and free will, the non-necessity of free will for morality, the purpose of moral talk, or the difference between complaining about the present and making choices about the future, but I won't bother with all that, as I really can't be arsed to argue philosophy with internet randos. I am sometimes upset by various facts about the world - that's all there is to be upset about, after all. I sometimes think about whether an action hurts people or not before I do it - this process is part of what determines my action. If you think this means I'm wasting my time, or know nothing about philosophy of mind, so be it - I'm willing to accept that as predetermined.

(It's not important, but no, my reference to theory of mind was directed toward your assuming that nobody could really have such divergent views from you so I must be trolling. If you didn't really mean that, of course, then there's nothing to say about it.

And it should be obvious that being sad about something is not the same as thinking it's immoral, but, if you are going to insist on total honesty, then, I admit, that was just a rhetorical device and I have not actually felt sadness in more than a year.)

[Doomblade187]

Another issue that poses a potential threat is the ongoing effort of make sterile seeds, crops that won't reproduce.

Ongoing effort? Hybrid crops have been in common use for nearly a hundred years now. They are preferred not because they are sterile, though they are, but because they yield very uniform product, have predictable genetics, and can therefore be made much more productive than traditional crops. The vast majority of the vegetable food eaten by humans in the past century has been from sterile crops.

(ETA: I suppose I should also clarify that I meant worldwide. Yes, America itself could easily be more or less fine.)

ETA2: Wait, I just realised you thought I meant that Marxism causes a Malthusian collapse. No, the Malthusian collapse is already inevitable. That's why I said, "billions of people are going to die, one way or another". It's happening.

Uh, no, Maximum, I'm referring to efforts to take currently replantable hybrid seeds produced by major agricultural corporations to utilize methods such as a terminator gene (which does have some potential uses, mind you) to "protect their intellectual property".

Source: https://gmo.geneticliteracyproject.org/FAQ/whats-controversy-gmos-terminator-seeds/

They pledged not to use it, but that please has since been refined "only to food crops" I don't trust them. It's not like most farmers don't already re-buy seed each year - that's what commercial seed companies are for - but the thought of introducing DRM into biology is inherently heinous.

[Maximum Spin]

Uh, no, Maximum, I'm referring to efforts to take currently replantable hybrid seeds produced by major agricultural corporations to utilize methods such as a terminator gene (which does have some potential uses, mind you) to "protect their intellectual property".

Source: https://gmo.geneticliteracyproject.org/FAQ/whats-controversy-gmos-terminator-seeds/

They pledged not to use it, but that please has since been refined "only to food crops" I don't trust them. It's not like most farmers don't already re-buy seed each year - that's what commercial seed companies are for - but the thought of introducing DRM into biology is inherently heinous.

Those aren't hybrid, though, those are GMO crops. As I said, hybrid seed, which most non-GM seed used today is, are already sterile.

I am saying that companies switching to making sterile GM crops is an irrelevancy and definitely not any greater "existential threat" than has already been happening, because essentially all our crops are already sterile.
Please keep in mind that nobody forces farmers to use these seeds. I personally don't use hybrid seed because I find it baffling that anyone would willingly give up their operational independence for a boost in yield. But if other people felt the same way I do, the world population would be much lower than it is today because we wouldn't have as much food.

[Starver]

Giving my own UK POV first, I'd be very surprised if Trump (if he continues on...) gives us any concessions/leeway in future trading negotiations[1] in trying to make himself look like the strongman. And our "Yes, we are breaking the law, in tearing up the recent agreement" could easily be one of his (many, word-soup) public justifications for it.

Heck, I could imagine Japan not ratifying the one agreement only just agreed, but that's not OT apart from being another reason (either way, with different spins) that could be framed as reason for "our way or the highway".


I'm not up with Biden's stance. Couldn't be less amenable(/reliant upon quid-pro-quo), though, surely... If it goes bad for us under his watch I'd at least expect it to be due to (more) errors/scheming on our side of the pond... Let's see, though.

[1] Bye-bye NHS, hello chlorinated chicken, etc...

[SalmonGod]

As for Malthus...

I'm of the opinion that even if Malthus was wrong, we should still reduce population.  Not forcefully, of course.  I'm no eco-fascist.  But by just encouraging the decision to have less kids - universally and equally for everyone.

We are capable of providing for more people than we have, yes.  Theoretically even more than the global population is projected to level off at.  But that doesn't mean there aren't issues.

1.  We shouldn't bank on it when we haven't resolved the antagonisms that prevent us from providing for our population right now.  Until we resolve those problems, adding more people will only continue to produce worse outcomes.
2.  Nobody addresses habitat destruction when this topic comes up.  Climate change is far from the only apocalyptic issue threatening the global ecosystem.  As we add population, it will create more pressure to expand into the last remaining wild places of the world capable of supporting biodiversity.  Billions more people means billions more homes, and a lot more space taken up.  We could pack in a lot tighter than we do, but that's miserable.
3.  IMO, it is simply miserable for the world to be so crowded, for many reasons.  It makes for a louder, more chaotic, more restrictive, and more conflict-prone world.  Just because the population technically could expand a bunch more doesn't mean that's desirable.

[Doomblade187]

Well, for one I consider hybrids and GM crops basically the same thing, just with different methodologies. Anyways, it doesn't matter if our current crops are sterile or not - what matters is that there are people trying to create biological DRM.

And yes, habitat destruction is a terrible terrible thing. I suggest we, uh, maybe stop building suburbs, strip malls, and shit. That would help. We already have more vacancies than homeless in most areas.

[Maximum Spin]

Well, for one I consider hybrids and GM crops basically the same thing, just with different methodologies. Anyways, it doesn't matter if our current crops are sterile or not - what matters is that there are people trying to create biological DRM.

But if hybrids and GM crops are the same thing — and honestly, I agree — then there is already biological DRM.

I'm not saying you shouldn't consider this a bad thing if you want to. I'm just saying that "ongoing effort to make this happen" is a bit behind the times.

[Doomblade187]

Well, for one I consider hybrids and GM crops basically the same thing, just with different methodologies. Anyways, it doesn't matter if our current crops are sterile or not - what matters is that there are people trying to create biological DRM.

But if hybrids and GM crops are the same thing — and honestly, I agree — then there is already biological DRM.

I'm not saying you shouldn't consider this a bad thing if you want to. I'm just saying that "ongoing effort to make this happen" is a bit behind the times.

Look, genetic research is an ongoing effort, and there's a multitude of uses for any development. However, research continues on Genetic Use Restriction Technology, and patents continue or be granted. It is an ongoing effort to commercialize this technology - the question is, will it be commercialized in a positive or negative way.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/pbi.12242

[RedKing]

I'm beginning to regret coming back. 

[Doomblade187]

I'm beginning to regret coming back. 

No, stay. I'm just extra salty today. *Offers hugs*

[Max™]

Could be worse, people could get all bummed every time you survive another year to your birthday.

[Maximum Spin]

Could be worse, people could get all bummed every time you survive another year to your birthday.

Oh man, that is a pretty awkward birthday.
Happy birthday, though.

[Starver]

RedKing: I've been waiting for someone to pick up on the electoral wonkiness[1] you mentioned.

That we've had a lot of Max vs Max[2] on other stuff is of course... normal?

Gives little room to make comments on other things[3]. But press ahead, and maybe I'll have something to say/agree with you so that I don't have to. 


[1] Partly relevent xkcd...

[2] Not just you guys, but the most notable tete-a-tete purely for that comment alone!

[3] e.g. The current Trump Twitter header photo is of a decorative architecturally-inscribed quote of "No day shall erase you from the memory of time - Virgil", which I take to be a 9/11 memorial thing, but somewhat makes me wonder if he's trying to put a good spin on his potential Nov/3rd loss, as well... A good old "I am immortaaaaal!" bad-guy falling into his own volcano thing... 

[voliol]

I'd never had drawn the comparison in my mind between Bowser, king of the Koopa kingdom, and Trump without your help Starver, but I suppose between the reddish hair, the narcissistic megalomania, and the excessive golfing (should you play Mario golf) there are some similarities. I feel the abduction of Princess Peach takes a dark(er) turn quite quickly if you continue that comparison though...