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[Reelya]

Well it's from fake news CNN but

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/09/04/politics/fact-check-trump-mccain-loser-veterans-choice/index.html

President Donald Trump cited the Veterans Choice health care program on Thursday as evidence that he has done more for veterans than the late Sen. John McCain.

There are two big problems here.

One: Choice was signed into law by President Barack Obama in 2014.

Two: It was McCain's bill.

Trump has lied more than 150 times that he is responsible for getting the Choice program created. It's an especially egregious bit of deception, though, when he takes credit for McCain's own initiative to argue he has been superior to McCain. When he did the same thing in 2019, we called it one of his 12 most notable lies of the year.

Trump made his latest comments about McCain while denying a report in The Atlantic magazine that alleged he had made various disparaging remarks about US soldiers who were killed, wounded or captured. The report said he had called McCain a "loser" after McCain died in 2018 and had expressed opposition to lowering flags to half-staff in McCain's honor.

So his response to the current claims is to say "I love Veterans, look what I did, which is better than that McCain guy" ... while taking credit for something McCain did :/

[SalmonGod]

Mr Trump reportedly referred to the fallen marines from Belleau Wood as “suckers”.

On Memorial Day in 2017, Mr Trump visited Arlington National Cemetery with his then-future (and now former) White House chief of staff, retired marine general John Kelly.

Gen Kelly’s son Robert was killed in Afghanistan in 2010, and is buried at Arlington. Standing next to his grave, Mr Trump reportedly turned to Gen Kelly and said: “I don’t get it. What was in it for them?”

Trump's thinking here likely is sociopathic, as others have said, but.... yeah, I also agree, but probably for different reasons than Trump is thinking.

I get the argument that the soldiers aren't responsible for the wars they're sent to.  Politicians are.  And yes, soldiers in the 60's and earlier were drafted. 

But soldiers are no longer drafted, and if someone decides to join the military, that is likely to be the most defining decision of their entire lives.  The evidence has been pretty well available and widely known for at least 30 years that if you join the U.S. military anymore, you are very likely to be involved in doing bad things.  I came across loads of records of the U.S. military being involved in terrible things while writing history reports in my mid-teens in the late 90's with nothing but the high school library for sources.  That took a *little bit* of effort.  Now you almost certainly have a smart phone by the time you're making this decision and can literally just look up the Wikipedia page for U.S. war crimes in 10 seconds.  Anybody who joins the military since the elimination of the draft either made such a decision without putting any effort into seriously evaluating it first, or they're really terrible at looking up information, or worse.

When there is a draft, yes, it's more of a grey area.  When there isn't, and the activities of a country's military have been consistent for generations, there's less of an excuse, imo.  I really don't understand how troop worship culture persists today, and continues to portray soldiers as victims.  Don't join, and you won't be a victim.  If you join and then claim there's no way you could have known you'd be involved in war crimes or that your life would be ruined a bunch of different ways... yeah... you're a sucker.  I know that will offend a lot of people.  But seriously.  ****Why would you join****  Like, fuck, the only reason I can think of is economic hardship, and I do cut people slack for that one, but... get into crime, I guess?  You're putting yourself in danger either way, but at least you'd have more control over your ethical destiny and probably a cleaner conscious.  Not to mention the countless stories out there of veterans getting screwed out of their promised benefits.  If you think military work is going to be your path to an early retirement with material security, sure, maybe it will work out for you (if the ethical compromise is worth that to you).  It does for many.  But maybe you should also wonder why 10% of homeless people are veterans...

A military recruiter called me in my late teens.  I spent 5 minutes just repeating "Not interested" until they hung up.  They never bothered me again.  That was around 2000.  Easiest decision I ever made in my life, and the last 20 years have shown it to be extremely correct.  My only regret is not being as witty as some kids today, who tell recruiters "Sorry, I don't want to work for an oil company."

[MetalSlimeHunt]

That was the 2010 witty kids. Today they just send back excerpts from the Communist Manifesto, which they can do because the recruiters work over texting now.

[Starver]

To be fair, there are probably more than enough places where "The only way out of <Hicksville> is to fight your way out", one way or another. At least for your average (GI) Joe that can't find another niche in life like "Internet Billionaire" or whatever the next big thing is...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I remember when I was in my early teens, a vacuum-cleaner salesman came round to demonstrate something 'big' in the vacuum-cleaning world to my Mum, while I was there. All the general spiel, putting in a new filter and running it over a 'clean' area to show how much it picked up, you know the thing. He was a relatively young man, or so it seemed to me as not even really a young man yet. Apparently just out of the army (minimum term?) and this door-to-door 'hoover' salesman gig was his next calling, or so he told us as he tried to get us to buy/hire-purchase this admitedly nice looking chromed appliance.

At one point in this maybe-faux friendliness, he was suggesting I 'join up'. I mean, I was several years away from leaving school, and I wasn't exactly from the urban-depriation part of my town (not sure he'd have had much luck selling there - not that he ultimately had any spending the afternoon in our house, either, worse luck) but I must have looked a 'likely lad' or he did that for every kid he encountered.

I have always wondered why, if he was so enamoured of the military life, he was now out and about selling cleaners. (Probably he also never owned one of his fancy cleaners, outright.) But I got the idea that it was his way out of whatever the expected non-military vocation was when he ran to the end of statutory schooling...

I didn't enlist, BTW. Not that my Dad's time (conscripted) didn't sound fun, but that was more good fortune and circumstances. He could have gone half a world away and not come back, but then he wouldn't have been my Dad(/I wouldn't have been there to have him as my Dad), so not exactly a well-qualified determinism.

If the US Armed Forces did not take young people (maybe it suddenly has vampire ghost robots doing all its stuff), imagine how many more aimless young people there'd be. Or maybe they'd do something better, but the end of UK conscription coincides very much with the rise of the Mod and Rocker subgroups, etc, perhaps from the sudden aimlessness.

[NJW2000]

So what you're saying is, the fewer young people go into the military, the better our music will be?

It's a strong argument for the use of military drones, alright.

[Yoink]

Sorry for feeding the troll. I was a li'l tipsy at the time and evidently forgot who Mr. Honkers was.   

That said, Vietnam was absolutely a moral war. Sure, some of the methods were heinous and the US and its allies absolutely should have pulled out far earlier once it was obvious they couldn't win it without killing the folks they came to save, but the basic premise was sound.   

Also I disagree with absolutely everything SalmonGod has said. "Ethical compromise"? What? What is more ethical about not going to war? Does it make any difference if one denies themselves that opportunity? War's still gonna happen, you're just gonna sit at home bored instead wondering what might have been.   
And crime is hardly a more sensible alternative for the same excitement/experience/monetary benefit. I dunno, maybe if you live in the most corrupt country in the world it'd be kinda viable, but in most places? Yeah, that's even less likely to end well for you than military service, lmao.   


Disclaimer: just as my response to the troll was perhaps inspired by alcohol, the peevishness of this post is perhaps inspired by the hangover I'm feeling right now. Doesn't change my feelings, but might cause them to make less sense when I type 'em out.   
Also tf am I even doing posting in this thread? Stupid drunk-me, setting foot in Ameripol for some reason. Welp, guess I typed all this out now.   

[sluissa]

To be fair, there are probably more than enough places where "The only way out of <Hicksville> is to fight your way out", one way or another. At least for your average (GI) Joe that can't find another niche in life like "Internet Billionaire" or whatever the next big thing is...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I remember when I was in my early teens, a vacuum-cleaner salesman came round to demonstrate something 'big' in the vacuum-cleaning world to my Mum, while I was there. All the general spiel, putting in a new filter and running it over a 'clean' area to show how much it picked up, you know the thing. He was a relatively young man, or so it seemed to me as not even really a young man yet. Apparently just out of the army (minimum term?) and this door-to-door 'hoover' salesman gig was his next calling, or so he told us as he tried to get us to buy/hire-purchase this admitedly nice looking chromed appliance.

At one point in this maybe-faux friendliness, he was suggesting I 'join up'. I mean, I was several years away from leaving school, and I wasn't exactly from the urban-depriation part of my town (not sure he'd have had much luck selling there - not that he ultimately had any spending the afternoon in our house, either, worse luck) but I must have looked a 'likely lad' or he did that for every kid he encountered.

I have always wondered why, if he was so enamoured of the military life, he was now out and about selling cleaners. (Probably he also never owned one of his fancy cleaners, outright.) But I got the idea that it was his way out of whatever the expected non-military vocation was when he ran to the end of statutory schooling...

I didn't enlist, BTW. Not that my Dad's time (conscripted) didn't sound fun, but that was more good fortune and circumstances. He could have gone half a world away and not come back, but then he wouldn't have been my Dad(/I wouldn't have been there to have him as my Dad), so not exactly a well-qualified determinism.

If the US Armed Forces did not take young people (maybe it suddenly has vampire ghost robots doing all its stuff), imagine how many more aimless young people there'd be. Or maybe they'd do something better, but the end of UK conscription coincides very much with the rise of the Mod and Rocker subgroups, etc, perhaps from the sudden aimlessness.

This, more or less. Also people don't always have a choice about staying in. Sometimes the military just decides they have too many people and force people out who don't fill the slots they need. Sometimes it's a medical issue. Could be any number of things. I know a few people who just basically said "It was fun, but it was too much like being in school. Everyone was young and I just grew out of it." I had one relative in the Navy that loved being on ships, but hated desk work. He was career, but when he reached a certain age they stopped offering him places on ships and said he'd be stuck on land for the foreseeable future in an administrative job. He took that opportunity to retire, even though he said he would have kept going at least one more term, had that not been the case.

It's not all bad. And not everyone is sent somewhere to oppress someone. A lot of the jobs are the same mundane jobs civilians do as well, just with a different uniform. Another family member never even left the continental US in 4 years.

Not really trying to defend the military here either. There's a lot of shit wrong with how they do things internally as well as how they're used by the political class. But it's not as black and white as it's made out to be.

[Starver]

So what you're saying is, the fewer young people go into the military, the better our music will be?

With any luck. 'Cos a lot of the current stuff couldn't be much worse.

[SalmonGod]

What? What is more ethical about not going to war? Does it make any difference if one denies themselves that opportunity? War's still gonna happen, you're just gonna sit at home bored instead wondering what might have been.

I don't even know what to say to this.  I can only conclude that our minds are 100% alien and incomprehensible to one another.

It's not all bad. And not everyone is sent somewhere to oppress someone. A lot of the jobs are the same mundane jobs civilians do as well, just with a different uniform. Another family member never even left the continental US in 4 years.

Yeah, I get that.  I know people who have done various non-combat roles in the military.

But if you think that you're not engaging in oppression unless you're directly physically assaulting people with your own two hands... well... there's probably nothing I can say that will get through that mental block, either.

Plus, you don't really know what kind of situations you're going to be put in when you sign up, and essentially give up your ethical agency.  I heard a looooooot of people in the mid-2000s lament how when they signed up, it was only because they thought the world was so stable there was no chance they'd be anywhere near an actual war.

[Dunamisdeos]

Plus, you don't really know what kind of situations you're going to be put in when you sign up, and essentially give up your ethical agency.

This is really the issue at hand there for joining.

You know the war is meant to kill foreigners in order to fill the pockets of wealthy oil executives. If you join up, it is because you are genuinely ok with killing foreigners in order to fill the pockets of wealthy oil executives. You either have a moral problem with this, or you do not. I think it's a fair assertion that you are the bad guy if you do not have a moral problem with this.

But the kicker is that yo can't join and say "well some people aren't sent to kill people to fill the pockets of wealthy oil executives with their own two hands, so its ok". The odds are quite likely that you will end up somewhere in that supply chain. You don't get to choose. You also knew this when you joined.

TLDR: You are signing up with an organization of your own free will with the explicit knowledge that there is a strong possibility that you will be killing foreigners in order to fill the pockets of wealthy oil executives. You are either morally ok with that or you are not.

[Loud Whispers]

Plus, you don't really know what kind of situations you're going to be put in when you sign up, and essentially give up your ethical agency.

This is really the issue at hand there for joining.

You know the war is meant to kill foreigners in order to fill the pockets of wealthy oil executives. If you join up, it is because you are genuinely ok with killing foreigners in order to fill the pockets of wealthy oil executives. You either have a moral problem with this, or you do not. I think it's a fair assertion that you are the bad guy if you do not have a moral problem with this.

But the kicker is that yo can't join and say "well some people aren't sent to kill people to fill the pockets of wealthy oil executives with their own two hands, so its ok". The odds are quite likely that you will end up somewhere in that supply chain. You don't get to choose. You also knew this when you joined.

TLDR: You are signing up with an organization of your own free will with the explicit knowledge that there is a strong possibility that you will be killing foreigners in order to fill the pockets of wealthy oil executives. You are either morally ok with that or you are not.

There are a few common reasons why someone joins the armed forces I've heard from army, air force and navy officers

1. It's what their parents did, and their parents' parents, and theirs e.t.c.
2. They have a strong sense of duty and think this is the best way they can help their country
3. They are running away from a bad home situation, and are using the armed forces as a ticket to a new life
4. Adventurist mindset (go see the world, and see the kinds of worlds inaccessible to normal people)
5. Ticket to career advancement, education or access to some other service (a lot of nuclear engineers, doctors, engineers, pilots, lawyers, captains e.t.c. who got their student fees paid by the gov this way).
6. Legal killing

In the case of #6 I'd agree with you, but 1-5 there's a whole lot of complex motivations going on that means I'm not going to morally condemn them any more than I would the US consumer for being addicted to plastic products and energy use which fuels the oil trade to begin with. Simply being a part of the supply chain would make villains of everyone who is not wholly self-sufficient on domestic oil. I'm not gonna fault the people on the ground subjected to the carrot and stick but ignore the person holding onto both

[dragdeler]

-

[Lord Shonus]

That said, Vietnam was absolutely a moral war. Sure, some of the methods were heinous and the US and its allies absolutely should have pulled out far earlier once it was obvious they couldn't win it without killing the folks they came to save, but the basic premise was sound.   

No, it wasn't. Unlike the Kim dynasty in Korea, Ho Chi Minh was entirely indigenous and a national hero. He wasn't even inherently Communist - the Reds gave him what he needed to fight the French, so he aligned with them. Trying to woo him out of the COMINTERN orbit with aid would have been far, far more effective than propping up a puppet state in the South and fighting what is probably the most mismanaged war in history.

[Loud Whispers]

So my takeaway is lawyers should advise criminals to remind judges of the complexity of their motivations. Oh no they didn't relinquish their personal responsibility first too bad try again.

If you want to be reductive and treat all service personnel as criminals irregardless of their actions and motivations, sure go ahead. They're all baby-killing bootlickers

Or put another way, would you say you are all criminals because you keep voting for warhawks who want to shoot foreigners for oil access? You haven't relinquished your personal responsibility. Your actions and inactions keep leading to the same leaders blowing up the middle east for oil access. Your country continues to benefit from it. So are we supposed to just ignore that not everyone partakes in the immorality, that not everyone is even in the US by choice? It's just plain stupid to oversimplify and villainise normal people, when the system is rigged to always have warhawks on top of the election choices

[Dunamisdeos]

1. It's what their parents did, and their parents' parents, and theirs e.t.c.
2. They have a strong sense of duty and think this is the best way they can help their country
3. They are running away from a bad home situation, and are using the armed forces as a ticket to a new life
4. Adventurist mindset (go see the world, and see the kinds of worlds inaccessible to normal people)
5. Ticket to career advancement, education or access to some other service (a lot of nuclear engineers, doctors, engineers, pilots, lawyers, captains e.t.c. who got their student fees paid by the gov this way).
6. Legal killing

I suppose I am putting too much emphasis on the people joining and not the people creating the situation. Most of those I don't really see as a good justification for joining the US military and supporting what it does, but you do have a point.

Or put another way, would you say you are all criminals because you keep voting for warhawks who want to shoot foreigners for oil access?

Fair enough, you got me. It still bothers me that people play the "I didn't know" card, though.