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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4444418 times)

misko27

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #38985 on: August 31, 2020, 12:21:19 pm »

Almost nothing new is happening.  Political persecution.  Brutalizing protests.  Hate crimes.  Mutual aid between civilian fascists and law enforcement.  Kidnappings.  Flouting rule of law.  Corruption.  Undermining democracy.  All these things people associate with Trump happened also under Bush and Obama.  The only exception I can think of is police openly encouraging militia groups to participate in violence against protesters on the streets.

The kindling had been there longer than my parents have been alive.  I'd argue it was lit in the response to 9/11.  By the time Trump took office, the fire was already raging.  The only reason everyone suddenly notices is he's the first to openly brag about throwing fuel on it.
I've been hearing you say this for a while. To be really quite blunt you sound like a bitter german communist in 1936, saying that the german state has long had a tendency towards authoritarianism (true), anti-semitism/"kulturkampf"-esque stances (true) and general anti-democratic positions (again all true), which leads them to claim that the current government is not unique or historically significant, and rather a logical extension of the past (untrue). Which is to say, you come off upset that people disregarded your previous warnings, so you must now argue that the current situation is not a change to in order to justify yourself. More bluntly: you're essentially a hipster, gatekeeping outrage at horrible acts because you feel like if you let any one thing be outrageous, that any individual action is "crossing the line", than it will diminish everything else you've seen in your life that was horrible. You are not permitting shades of evil because you feel that the shades are too evil as they are, and, I sense, you do not have the energy to be further outraged.

On historical novelty: Authoritarianism often manifests as a general support of authoritarian leaders no matter who they are, but it can also manifest as support for a particular authoritarian. This distinction is significant, as (in theory) an authoritarian idealogue has standards: they have an idea of authoritarianism which any particular autocrat may or may not live up to. But an authoritarian loyalist does not have this. They support a person, and their standards are that person. By definition such a thing cannot ever be wrong no matter their actions. This is the historically unique thing occuring in the US today; whatever other things they may wield, lent to them by history.

The narcissism of the populist authoritarian demands that things be about them. Whatever it relies on, it claims those things for its own, expands to fill the entire field of "valid" thought, and anything outside of it is no longer relevant. It is those things because it claims to be all that is good, and all that it is not is not good. It is not a single part, but rather "pervades and regulates the whole."  This means that you, with your position, are in essence denying that they are what say they are and freely admit to doing: totalizing. Making everything about them. While historically they are wrong because not everything is not about them, they are very correct in that their existance makes all contemporary debates, in essence, referundums on themselves. With them or against them. This is what people are responding to, ultimately.

TL;DR: I mean, Trump is an egomaniacal narcissist and a reality-show celebrity. How can one claim to be surprised he's made the national debate all about him? There is no room for matters of policy and debate, there is only "do you like him?" That, in-and-of-itself, is the very essence of Trumpism, which otherwise lacks real positions.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2020, 12:22:53 pm by misko27 »
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #38986 on: August 31, 2020, 12:26:35 pm »

A poignant observation, but not exactly unique-- see also the Kims of north korea.

Cult of personality is hardly new or novel.  It might be novel-- FOR THE US-- but then again, Hitler was also a cult personality figure in his time.


demagoguery is basically the exact thing you are describing.  It is always bad.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #38987 on: August 31, 2020, 01:29:06 pm »

Which is to say, you come off upset that people disregarded your previous warnings, so you must now argue that the current situation is not a change to in order to justify yourself. More bluntly: you're essentially a hipster, gatekeeping outrage at horrible acts because you feel like if you let any one thing be outrageous, that any individual action is "crossing the line", than it will diminish everything else you've seen in your life that was horrible. You are not permitting shades of evil because you feel that the shades are too evil as they are, and, I sense, you do not have the energy to be further outraged.

"Shut the fuck up about the rashes I refused to treat, we've got festering boils now! Why are you always so negative?"
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Rolan7

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #38988 on: August 31, 2020, 01:42:45 pm »

We can point out the rashes while accepting that we need to treat the boils first.
And point out that, yeah, the rashes have been getting worse for decades and led to the boils.  Maybe the boils should be a wake up call about the rash.

In other words:  Vote against Trump, vote for actual progressives in all the many places they have a chance.  If this rate of progress is too slow to save the planet save civilization as we know it, then it's too slow - it's our best shot, and we have more bargaining power in a coalition than out of it.  (Because first past the post is criminally broken, but we can't fix that yet).

I'll be protesting again next weekend because I don't see any hope in a militant scenario.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #38989 on: August 31, 2020, 01:53:17 pm »

This isn't about the rate of progress. This is about recognizing the role that the failure of liberals played in creating Trump. Without fail, every time that is brought up it degenerates into wildly unproductive attempts to avoid critique or advancement, such as complaining about how people should vote.

Trump owns America's heart because nobody else cares to have it. The Democrats sure fucking don't. They didn't govern this country even when they had it, and that's the truth.

Nothing is going to save this country or this planet, but I will never shut the fuck up until you all accept your complicity. You even prepare your future complicity right now, talking about "we'll just do our usual thing, and if we die, eh human nature".
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dragdeler

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #38990 on: August 31, 2020, 02:05:40 pm »

-
« Last Edit: November 24, 2020, 04:40:53 pm by dragdeler »
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voliol

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #38991 on: August 31, 2020, 02:06:38 pm »

[...]
Nothing is going to save this country or this planet, but I will never shut the fuck up until you all accept your complicity. You even prepare your future complicity right now, talking about "we'll just do our usual thing, and if we die, eh human nature".

Heads-up, declaring a problem as unsolvable doesn’t help solving it.

I’ll also argue that the US of A isn’t the be-all-end-all of ”this planet”. The rest of the world has its problems as well, and they are certainly influenced by what’s going on in the US, but the implication that the rest of the world will fall when the US does is suspiciously close to the neo-imperialistic mantra of the US being the world-wide defender of democracy.

nenjin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #38992 on: August 31, 2020, 02:06:52 pm »

Quote
Nothing is going to save this country or this planet, but I will never shut the fuck up until you all accept your complicity. You even prepare your future complicity right now, talking about "we'll just do our usual thing, and if we die, eh human nature".

MSH: "People need to do stuff to change. Also we can't save anything."

Also MSH: "All I want is for people to admit their complicity. To me. Personally."

I believe they call this the Left eating itself. Declaring everything is fucked forever, but also, pointing fingers and saying fuck you to people that ostensibly share your political views.

Ain't politics grand.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #38993 on: August 31, 2020, 02:14:07 pm »

I’ll also argue that the US of A isn’t the be-all-end-all of ”this planet”. The rest of the world has its problems as well, and they are certainly influenced by what’s going on in the US, but the implication that the rest of the world will fall when the US does is suspiciously close to the neo-imperialistic mantra of the US being the world-wide defender of democracy.
Ecological collapse is what will be the killer. Unless the world order shifts completely and totally with the US' self-destruction towards an unprecedented degree of ecological preservation, which all understanding of capitalist economics suggest is impossible, I don't see it happening.

MSH: "People need to do stuff to change. Also we can't save anything."

Also MSH: "All I want is for people to admit their complicity. To me. Personally."

I believe they call this the Left eating itself. Declaring everything is fucked forever, but also, pointing fingers and saying fuck you to people that ostensibly share your political views.

Ain't politics grand.
I agree, I'm incredibly right about things all the time. Personally, I'm thinking I'll turn into one of those wasteland hermit types and get knifed by teenager bandits for a hunk of imperishable plastic cheese in 40 years.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
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Rolan7

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #38994 on: August 31, 2020, 02:16:18 pm »

I’ll also argue that the US of A isn’t the be-all-end-all of ”this planet”. The rest of the world has its problems as well, and they are certainly influenced by what’s going on in the US, but the implication that the rest of the world will fall when the US does is suspiciously close to the neo-imperialistic mantra of the US being the world-wide defender of democracy.
That's the worst part of the nuclear age:  Any nuclear state imploding seriously endangers world civilization.  Ex-USSR states were surprisingly responsible, and even still propagated nuclear material to an uncomfortable degree.  America's stockpile and self-centeredness makes us too big to fail.  We will nuke the shit out of ourselves, see if we don't.
(oh yeah and that would be bad for all of you I guess)
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This one didn't want to be who they was. On the Surface – it was a dull, unconsidered sadness. But everything changed. Which implied everything could change.

Naturegirl1999

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #38995 on: August 31, 2020, 02:24:19 pm »

I do hope we’re not that stupid
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Rolan7

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #38996 on: August 31, 2020, 02:25:40 pm »

I do hope we’re not that stupid
It doesn't have to be all of us, just a few of us.

I agree, I'm incredibly right about things all the time. Personally, I'm thinking I'll turn into one of those wasteland hermit types and get knifed by teenager bandits for a hunk of imperishable plastic cheese in 40 years.
My dad swears by Muenster left out until it starts sweating grease, I kid you not.  Me, I know a good cheese when I have to hew off a layer of hardened, somehow unmoldy crust to get at that orange-dyed center.
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Quote from: Fallen London, one Unthinkable Hope
This one didn't want to be who they was. On the Surface – it was a dull, unconsidered sadness. But everything changed. Which implied everything could change.

Naturegirl1999

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #38997 on: August 31, 2020, 02:30:28 pm »

I do hope we’re not that stupid
It doesn't have to be all of us, just a few of us.
So we just have to keep the stupid ones away from the nukes
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dragdeler

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #38998 on: August 31, 2020, 02:30:40 pm »

-
« Last Edit: November 24, 2020, 04:40:56 pm by dragdeler »
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martinuzz

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #38999 on: August 31, 2020, 02:32:57 pm »

So we just have to keep the stupid ones away from the nukes
Only the MAD can have it
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