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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4222058 times)

MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #36615 on: May 01, 2020, 06:24:26 am »

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andrea

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #36616 on: May 01, 2020, 06:26:14 am »

It was related to all the "with that much wealth we could do X things", such as the incredibly long scroll infographic above.

It is more about being pedantic, really. You spend money, not wealth, and not all forms of wealth can be easily be turned into money. An easy example is the house you live in. Maybe you live in a great house worth 1M. But if you lose your income and have no other wealth, you could easily be rich and starving (of course the credit system allows you to borrow money offering wealth as a collateral, so it isn't that clear cut in real life, but it still shows the difference between wealth and money)

scriver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #36617 on: May 01, 2020, 06:53:16 am »

If you live in a house worth a million then you have rooms you can rent out or mortgages you can trade in for loans or whatever the English words for this is
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McTraveller

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #36618 on: May 01, 2020, 09:01:48 am »

If you live in a house worth a million then you have rooms you can rent out or mortgages you can trade in for loans or whatever the English words for this is
In my geographic area, and it's not even really that "hot" of a housing market, you can have a house that costs $750k and might be 3000 square feet (278 square meters for those that use that metric) but only have 12-15 total rooms.  Usually that is 3 baths, 4 bedrooms, kitchen, dining, den, living, an office, and some "utility" rooms.  This is not really a house that you can rent out to pay bills and live in at the same time - these are single family homes.  If you wanted to rent that out you'd have to be on very good terms with the renter, because you'd be sharing a living space.  It's very rare that houses are built like apartments.

A million bucks isn't really that much for a house.
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Trekkin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #36619 on: May 01, 2020, 09:11:42 am »

A million bucks isn't really that much for a house.

Heck, in my area a million bucks might buy you a one-bedroom apartment.
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Doomblade187

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #36620 on: May 01, 2020, 09:27:50 am »

The problem with being a billionaire, is that by the time people reach this level of wealth concentration, they have so much power - as mentioned, much of Bezos' wealth is in stocks, which directly translates to leverage at publicly traded companies - and they go to seemingly endless efforts to keep anyone else from reaching similar levels of helath and wealth.

Additionally, billionaire philanthropy is often used to generate policy effects favorable to them, as opposed to actually fixing immediate issues in the world - Bezos could easily fund a new water system for Flint Michigan, but instead everyone with less resources have to do so. Many of the upper crust give more to think tanks and lobbyists than to charity.
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Lord Shonus

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #36621 on: May 01, 2020, 09:31:42 am »

Flint is a good example of a situation where throwing money at a problem isn't a solution after a certain point. The old water system is (or was, until all this started) being replaced at a high rate, with the biggest bottleneck being equipment and trained manpower (the sort of tunneling they're doing to replace lines to and from the houses is something that is usually done on a much smaller scale), not funding.
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Doomblade187

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #36622 on: May 01, 2020, 09:39:45 am »

Flint is a good example of a situation where throwing money at a problem isn't a solution after a certain point. The old water system is (or was, until all this started) being replaced at a high rate, with the biggest bottleneck being equipment and trained manpower (the sort of tunneling they're doing to replace lines to and from the houses is something that is usually done on a much smaller scale), not funding.
Well, that's the issue *now*, but the funding was the initial issue - nobody wanted to pay for it, not even their own state. Money can help out with the healthcare impacts of the crisis, as well.
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McTraveller

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #36623 on: May 01, 2020, 10:17:31 am »

Well, that's the issue *now*, but the funding was the initial issue - nobody wanted to pay for it, not even their own state. Money can help out with the healthcare impacts of the crisis, as well.
I think what we've been discussing isn't that "money" helps - actual work helps.  Money is our current best attempt at abstracting "work", and it has its flaws.

Flint has all kinds of problems, and yes a good bit of it was questionable (at best) allocation of resources.  But the most important resource that was missed wasn't money - it was attention.  Nobody (or an insufficient number) was paying attention to it, until it was too late.

This seems to be the main problem with society today - we see it with the virus response too.  Nobody paying attention proactively, so everything is reactionary which is all kinds of bad.  Of course this is somewhat retrospective - it's easy to know when not enough attention was paid.
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Doomblade187

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #36624 on: May 01, 2020, 10:23:24 am »

I mean, that's true for a lot of problems, yeah. It's why celebrities try and champion causes they care about. The model breaks down for more worldwide problems though, like environmental destruction - there's widespread attention and concerns about the issue, but there are notable corporate and state actors standing in the way of progress.
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SalmonGod

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #36625 on: May 01, 2020, 10:33:54 am »

Because it's literally just pieces of paper. Using it doesn't mean making more resources, it means changing allocation of existing resources. It's a systematic issue. If you give resources to those people then those resources have to come from somewhere else, probably from raising the price of the resource for everyone who isn't the person you're re-allocating the resource to.

Jeff Bezos handing out money doesn't solve the issue. Whatever resource is purchased with that money is no longer available to people who you didn't give the money to (the proximate effect is that the price rises).

The core argument here is that since rich people are sitting on piles of unused money that's somehow making everyone else have less (of real things). It just isn't. That isn't how it works. If Jeff was a wild spender it would probably drive inflation more than do anything else, causing everyone else's money to lower in value. People saving/hoarding/not-spending money is strongly anti-inflationary.

We could definitely stimulate more consumption of real resources by everyone in general. There would be a number of ways to achieve that. However, think what that actually does for the planet and the environment? So, because people like Jezz Bezos are hoarding money, according to the idea, then other people can't access as much resources. But ... we're already consuming WAY too much resources, so stimulating more consumption as a way to fix inequality seems like a poor solution. If Jezz Bezos wasn't sitting on all that stimulus money think how much hotter the economy could burn I guess. Which isn't necessarily a good thing.

What people like Jeff Bezos have is purely nominal wealth. You could say that Jeff Bezos could afford to buy 90 billion hamburgers and give everyone in the world 12 hamburgers and how this would help world hunger. Except it's a stupid idea and wouldn't work, because the world cannot produce that many extra hamburgers. Sure, you can use the money to commandeer existing food and redistribute it, but then other people find that if they want any of the remaining hamburgers they're now $50 each. So this idea that just because on-paper such-and-such amount of money is enough to provide resources to everyone is actually a complete lie. The resources don't exist. You use money to change resource allocations, not to make fundamentally more resources (and if you do: you just wreck the environment that much quicker).

We waste a massive proportion of the food we produce in normal times.  Estimates vary, but the average between them from what I've read in the past sits somewhere between 1/2 and 2/3 of food is wasted.  Right now with COVID going on, there is threat of mass starvation at the same time that raw produce is being destroyed by the millions of tons.  We also have several times more empty homes than homeless people.  You can do a quick search right now and see images of homeless people sleeping on parking lot concrete inside little 6 ft squares to enforce social distancing with armed police standing over them, with hotels in the background completely empty. 

In every case, the issue is resources only go to people when it's profitable.  When you have a small handful of ultra-rich and a majority with essentially nothing, what this means in effect is that the those ultra-rich have nothing to gain from sharing resources which absolutely exist and are available with a huge portion of the population.  It doesn't matter what form that wealth is in - the effect will be the same.

You're either completely unaware of what we produce and waste, or you're arguing that it's essential that those resources go to waste in order to keep prices from rising.  Either way, it's impractical nonsense that just reinforces the fact that it's all an imaginary number game, and it's impossible to have a compassionate society that continues playing.

The matter is also somewhat complicated in that Bezos's wealth isn't exactly fungible. It is calculated based on the market value of the stocks he owns, but that isn't quite money. If he tried to access a large enough chunk of it, the actual value would become significantly lower. If you nationalized it in order to sell it and generate revenue for social programs, it would be worth much, much less that its currently stated value. It is wealth, but it is not money. While it may look like it since it is quoted in dollars, there isn't actually a 180 billion dollar pile of money sitting unused.

A better measure for inequality may be spending capability ( as in how much money one can reasonably afford to consume, regardless of availability of goods.), Mind you, even with that he is waaaaaaay richer than any common person, but that is a more accurate representation , if difficult to calculate, of how much richer than the common person he is.

Due to the way those huge net worths are tied to the market worth of businesses rather than actual physical stuff owned or money, it can be hard to fix without creating some perverse incentives or suboptimal situations. For example, if you have a wealth tax on shares, you basically force companies to issue enough dividends to pay the tax. Lets say, a 5% tax on all shares. For anyone to afford holding the company, that company needs to pay at least 5% dividend or owning it becomes extremely costly; since revenues are often quite a lot less than worth of a company, it becomes crippling. Of course you can have a threshold, but then you are incentivized not to grow your company. Which could arguably be considered a plus actually, with an incentive toward smaller companies. More diluted ownership is also a possibility, the effects of that I honestly don't know.
Point is, going directly after that accrued value has a lot more consequences to everyone than just lowering unequality.

I wonder if going after corporations themselves wouldn't be a more effective route, closing some tax loopholes and exemptions.

But regarding wealth accumulation itself, a favourite of mine is an inheritance tax. Let people earn and keep a lot in life, but don't let it accumulate across generations to make aristocracy.

Are you accounting for the more than $20 trillion hidden in offshore bank accounts, as reported by Forbes (that radical communist publication)?  Are they hiding stocks in those accounts?

And if Bloomberg can drop about $1 billion on a half-ass for the lulz vanity run at presidency while being about 1/2 a Bezos, doesn't that make you wonder just how much Bezos could spent on humanitarian efforts if he really cared?  Or how much those 400 people could pool together?  If Bloomberg's campaign spent about 2% of his net worth... and we assume that he could be capable of more... and we extend that to the rest of his class... that pretty easily looks to me like a bunch of the stuff in that infographic would absolutely be possible, and that they simply choose not to is a true statement.

And even if the numbers aren't representative of spendable cash...... so fucking what?  Stocks and assets can be redistributed, too.  How can anybody argue that it's healthy for anyone to control so much in any form?  No matter how you spin it, those numbers are still representative of control over resources.  And if too many people are lacking access to essential resources, then the pretty obvious answer is to wrest control away from those who are hoarding them.  All of this dancing around petty details and definitions is just sophist obfuscation.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2020, 10:39:41 am by SalmonGod »
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McTraveller

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #36626 on: May 01, 2020, 11:01:14 am »

In every case, the issue is resources only go to people when it's profitable.
That's a bit absolutist isn't it?  Overstocked resources are quite often sold even "below cost" just to clear shelves.

I suspect the farmers plowing their fields under is more to do with perverse insurance policies that don't give a payout if you donate crops than it is to do with lack of profit.

I mean I'd rather sell my food at very low prices, or give it away, than spend the effort and resources to plow it into the ground.  Unless plowing a crop into the ground can help the soil in some way maybe, so that does have some benefit? I dunno.
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nenjin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #36627 on: May 01, 2020, 11:08:43 am »

Milk producers are pouring their products into ditches because "there isn't enough demand", and yet, anecdotally at my grocery store, milk stocks are showing signs of depletion. (Pre-covid you never saw the whole milk section even dented compared to skim and 2%. Now, Whole Milk is like 95% gone while the other milk products, while being low, still have more stock.)

I would not be surprised if many producers, while legitimately taking a hit, are overstating it so they can reap more subsidies and protections. Fucking dairy industry has been doing this for decades already.
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Naturegirl1999

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #36628 on: May 01, 2020, 11:11:05 am »

Milk producers are pouring their products into ditches because "there isn't enough demand", and yet, anecdotally at my grocery store, milk stocks are showing signs of depletion. (Pre-covid you never saw the whole milk section even dented compared to skim and 2%. Now, Whole Milk is like 95% gone while the other milk products, while being low, still have more stock.)

I would not be surprised if many producers, while legitimately taking a hit, are overstating it so they can reap more subsidies and protections. Fucking dairy industry has been doing this for decades already.
This surprised me, how is wasting product helpful? Why would they dump milk into ditches? This is wasteful and helps no one
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Qassius

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #36629 on: May 01, 2020, 11:19:00 am »

Milk producers are pouring their products into ditches because "there isn't enough demand", and yet, anecdotally at my grocery store, milk stocks are showing signs of depletion. (Pre-covid you never saw the whole milk section even dented compared to skim and 2%. Now, Whole Milk is like 95% gone while the other milk products, while being low, still have more stock.)

I would not be surprised if many producers, while legitimately taking a hit, are overstating it so they can reap more subsidies and protections. Fucking dairy industry has been doing this for decades already.
This surprised me, how is wasting product helpful? Why would they dump milk into ditches? This is wasteful and helps no one
Dairy farmers don't sell milk, they require processing facilities to buy their raw product and process it into milk. It becomes more of a financial liability to hold onto the raw supplies when there aren't facilities open to buy them, so they dump it. When they say demand, it isn't consumer demand, but of the actual raw product.
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