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[Doomblade187]

If the south hadn't fallen for the red scare tactics used against Bernie and voted for a racist old republican to be the Democratic nominee, then maybe this would be a period of awakening that could possibly lead to the US having proper public healthcare, services, and employment rights.

It still may be, but I do not trust Biden to do any better than Trump on facing the coronavirus. He's still Candidate No-M4A.

What does No-M4A mean?

Biden is generally against Medicare for All.

[Frumple]

Though still for significant expansion of most of our existing public healthcare stuff, for what it's worth. Iirc he's at least sometimes been for a public option, too, if not single payer.

Basically not as good as it could be, but still, y'know, pretty fuckin' huge improvement over the current state of things or the goddamn hellish shitscape that was pre-ACA. Just in case anyone was thinking Biden's plan on that front is even remotely comparable to the rotary powered pope's pear the GOP wants to jam up our collective asses.

[hector13]

Trump tested negative for a Covid-19, according to WH physician Sean Conley.

I don’t know if I can trust that, but sure.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Biden said outright that even if Congress passed Medicare For All, he'd veto it. I'm sure he'll have the close consideration of our insurance industry leaders on any..."expansions".

[Frumple]

Still better than the twenty horsepower spinning pear, man. That's all I was sayin'.

[Rolan7]

Biden said outright that even if Congress passed Medicare For All, he'd veto it. I'm sure he'll have the close consideration of our insurance industry leaders on any..."expansions".

Okay but when did he say that-
Oh
Five days ago
Despite, like, the unchecked pathogen.  Unchecked because people with symptoms largely can't afford the luxury of being tested.
I'm going to hate voting for this guy.  He has improved a lot, but he's still not the best.
But I guess he's the best we're getting.  Sorry, I'm kinda angry.

Edit: Like, it's obviously better than the dipshit who warbles between "it's fine, it'll go away soon" and "it's a Chinese bio attack" and denied being tested until yesterday.  Being a total germaphobe (who loves McDonalds) and geriatric, I don't believe for a second that he wasn't tested several times before now.  But his doctors say the darndest things.

[Reelya]

"They have improved a lot" sounds a lot like the partner of abusive person says.

Once they have what they want the abuse returns.

[Rolan7]

"They have improved a lot" sounds a lot like the partner of abusive person says.

Once they have what they want the abuse returns.

I speak from experience, if not wisdom.  But as it goes, my alternatives are shut off.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

If you can't demonstrate your ability to follow through with your position, then you only prove you have no power. This is the error Nancy Pelosi made by not seeking arrest warrants for people who defied subpoenas during the impeachment hearings.

Do not be like Nancy Pelosi. Show the DNC you mean it.

[Rolan7]

Yes, I have no power.  What recourse do I have within the system?  None.
Within the system.

[SalmonGod]

Yes, I have no power.  What recourse do I have within the system?  None.
Within the system.

Your vote.  That is the only leverage you have.  That's why you don't give it away for nothing.

But that's what we've been doing for generations, and that's why we are where we are now.

The Democrats know that they can keep sliding to the right just so long as they don't appear worse than the Republicans.  The Republicans know that when the Democrats slide right, they can call the Democrat platform socialism, and distance themselves even further to the right of that position.  Over and over again.  Every cycle.



Yes, the prospect of Republicans in power is scarier than Democrats in power.  But if the cycle isn't broken, then the Democrat candidate in a couple cycles will be just as scary as Trump is now.  And the Republicans will have someone worse ready to keep the fear cycle going.

And the thing is there's no reason this can't be turned around on them.  They tell us we have to give up or everyone will suffer.  But why does that only work in one direction?  If we are at all united in our opposition to Republicans than why is only one faction of that opposition expected to compromise?  Why can't we demand that they compromise, or suffer the lost election?  That's would be the only way to end the game, because it's the only way to apply the only leverage that we have (within the system).  And if they don't compromise, then we're not responsible for the result, because we didn't start this game.  They did.  We shouldn't accept their shame.  And we should remind them at every point that something bad happens that they need to compromise with us next time.

And if they still refuse, then it's confirmation that they were never our allies to begin with.  That Democrats and Republicans were the same team all along, benefiting from this game in the same way.  That this whole thing was just a psychological abuse campaign all along to gaslight us into granting permission for our own victimization.

[Reelya]

I think that graph is a fiction. The people on the other side often feel exactly the same way, that they're voting for the lesser evil. The point about the "lesser of two evils" concept isn't that one specific side is "evil" and the other is "good", it's that neither side gets their preferred candidate, they vote for the one they think is the lesser of two evils. That's the entire point. That graph above is a purely partisan mockery of the core concept.

How do you think the far-right felt about Mitt Romney, who implemented health reform in his state as governor? He was a leftie lesser of two evils, and voting for him meant embracing a leftward slide because they had no choice. Those other guys also constantly make the exact same point, that every government reform, project or spending is a step towards communism.

So, you got the far-left saying that voting for anyone at all except the far-left candidate is an inexorable right-wing slide, and you got the far-right saying anyone in power further left than a far-right candidate is just feeding the inexorable slide into communistic government rule.

The graph shown is bullshit basically. If the above image was true, all countries would veer right over time, but they don't.

If you are far-left and you are part of the bunch who didn't go out vote because Clinton wasn't a compelling candidate, then you effectively handed a vote directly to Trump, you didn't stick to some principles about only supporting the left and not letting the country shift to the right. It's the Trolley Problem basically, where you let the train run over 5 people because then you can say it's not your fault that the train ran anyone over, and it would have hit 3 people on the other track even if you pulled the lever.

Point in case
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesser_of_two_evils_principle

In 2012, Huffington Post columnist Sanford Jay Rosen stated that the idea became a common practice for left-leaning voters in the United States due to their overwhelming disapproval of the United States government's support for the Vietnam War.[1] Rosen stated: "Beginning with the 1968 presidential election, I often have heard from liberals that they could not vote for the lesser of two evils. Some said they would not vote; some said they would vote for a third party candidate. That mantra delivered us to Richard Nixon in 1972 until Watergate did him in. And it delivered us to George W. Bush and Dick Cheney in 2000 until they were termed out in 2009".

Yeah, great track record the left-wing abstaining voting is doing. You dodge getting the evil right-leaning Al Gore in power Back in 2000 instead of the Bush Administration. It took so few votes for that outcome to be a thing. A few lefties in Florida probably thought it didn't matter who won, so didn't turn up to support the Democrats, or they did a pretend vote for a third party with a chuckle: "that'll show 'the man' that we stoners mean business!". End result: Iraq War. Seriously, it's exactly that idiotic attitude as expressed in that graph which causes you to see so many complete Nazi fuck-knuckles getting elected in the first place. Just please vote for the least Hitler-like person, even if they do kinda suck.

[wierd]

as much as it pains me to say it, I find myself secretly wishing for biden to get Covid....


I know that is not something I should ever wish for... but still..........

[dragdeler]

-

[SalmonGod]

I honestly have no idea whatsoever how your post is even supposed to refute my point in any substantial way, Reelya.  Refusing to vote lesser of two evils is bad because Republicans win elections sometimes?  And every time it's the far-left's fault?  Is that really it?

Is there really zero onus on the Democrat party to put forth decent candidates?  None whatsoever?  If they ever lose it's the far left's fault for refusing to hold their nose.  Nothing more.  No one else has any responsibility.  They can do whatever they want, and there's a moral duty to support them unconditionally.  Sounds like a great recipe for a healthy functional democracy!

And as for the rightward slide, I don't even know how that can be controversial.  The Democrats are literally running an anti-abortion racist pro-police state warmonger, who has said he would veto M4A, tells people not to vote for him when they ask him softball questions about the environment, tries repeatedly to cut social programs, openly mocks youth while authoring their indentured servitude, etc etc etc. 

You're even blaming the far-left for the Iraq War because it's a safe bet that a handful of left-leaning voters in the state presumably voted for Nader instead of Gore.  Completely ignoring that there was evidence of electoral fraud in the state, which was governed by W Bush's brother at the time.  And ignoring that Biden, the current presumptive Democrat candidate, was also one of the most outspoken proponents and enablers of that war!  But no.  It's the far left's fault.  We actually caused the Iraq War by being too salty about our completely lack of representation.  Everything would be better if we'd stop being crying petulant children and abandon all actual investment in politics.  Just stop thinking about it at all and observe our moral duty to check D for eternity.

And I don't know why you're saying that if it were true, it would happen everywhere.  Other countries don't have this two party good cop/bad cop routine.  And regardless, it's a pretty common observation expressed by people all over the world that most of it is sliding rightwards, not just the USA.

Our vote is our only leverage.  It is the only reason politicians have to listen to us.  If they know they can take it for granted, then they have no reason to listen.  None.  What is the low bar supposed to be where it's acceptable to use that leverage?  Please tell me.