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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4465726 times)

Devastator

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #35400 on: March 11, 2020, 08:29:01 am »

If Biden is so racist, then why does he have the support of so many black voters?
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Mephisto

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #35401 on: March 11, 2020, 08:30:54 am »

Can't even tell if that last one is Poe's Law or not.
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dragdeler

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #35402 on: March 11, 2020, 08:32:22 am »

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« Last Edit: November 24, 2020, 12:14:42 pm by dragdeler »
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Devastator

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #35403 on: March 11, 2020, 08:35:49 am »

Can't even tell if that last one is Poe's Law or not.

It's a serious question.  Insisting that they're only voting for him because of Obama is implying they're too dumb to vote in their own interest.  No, if he were only there to be the racist counterbalance to Obama, they wouldn't be voting for him now.

On a more basic level, if he truly opposed desegregation, why did he agree to serve as Obama's VP?  That's not a decision that could have been forced upon him.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2020, 08:37:59 am by Devastator »
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #35404 on: March 11, 2020, 08:38:46 am »

If Biden is so racist, then why does he have the support of so many black voters?
From what I understand, it's substantially because said voters expect most of the white voters to be racist, too. Most of the rest of it's largely because biden's a long time democrat, and it's democrat infrastructure (if not always white democrat infrastructure) that's done more or less fuck or all for them. There's other stuff going on, too -- outreach by biden, years of varyingly good working relationships with black organizations across the country (which even if not exactly always the greatest in results makes him a pretty known variable), so on, so forth.

Black voters (or at least quite a lot of them) don't seem to have any expectation of a non-racist non-black getting elected, basically. Add in a garnish of "establishment" being very much not a snarl word for a lot of 'em (and especially some of the more influential groups, ala the churches) and you have what could be seen as strangely strong support. I posted a link a few pages back with some interesting insight that lays that stuff out more clearly than I can right now.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #35405 on: March 11, 2020, 08:42:25 am »

The lesson of this election is that refutation of reality exists for Democratic voters as much as it does for Republicans. Most people don't vote based on policies - Bernie's policies were are far more in line with both the specific desires and general ethos of the Dem voters than Biden. And they certainly don't vote on character of the candidates.

Rather, the horrifying truth is that the deciding majority of the voters are deciding based on a combination of instruction from names they know and most of all an intangible inertial "feeling" of who's best. Anybody who's stuck with a Trumpist relation knows what this is like, you present rational arguments, they agree with those arguments, and then they say "but I just know he's good, you should give him a chance"!

In this, it is Biden who is Blue Trump, not Bernie. It doesn't matter that Biden is a segregationist and a rapist and will probably be dead soon - people don't think about it in those terms. They feel the vote. The consent manufacturing job the DNC and media pulled on and after SC was only another blow on top of that. Democracy can't function with voters who don't believe in reality, and if there's anything about Trump's America that I know for sure, it is that we are fresh out of reality.
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Devastator

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #35406 on: March 11, 2020, 08:43:13 am »

That sounds awfully close to "Because he's not racist" to me.
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dragdeler

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #35407 on: March 11, 2020, 08:50:22 am »

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« Last Edit: November 24, 2020, 12:14:46 pm by dragdeler »
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SalmonGod

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #35408 on: March 11, 2020, 08:57:07 am »

No offense, but a lot of that stuff isn't quite right, Salmon.  Like for instance, "Backed the TPP", when Trump sank it.  Or "Voted for NAFTA" when Trump insisted it was terrible only to re-sign it with his name on it.  Or "Didn't bail out or jail the crooked bankers" when he was Obama's VP, who did bail them out.  He also flipped on his support for the Iraq war after several years, opposing it later.

Some of those are also complex issues, such as the quote about 'opposing desegregation', when he supported many desegregation issues at the exact same time as the bill in question, just not that particular bill.

Same with stuff like 'didn't vow to legalize marijuana', which the President can't actually do.

So.. yeah, that's a long list of cherrypicked topics which ignore context and several times list him doing things that were quite opposite of Trumps current actions, or insists that there's only one way to accomplish improvements in lifestyle.  So I'm not convinced by that one, particularly the 'worse to woman than Trump', owner of the Project Hollywood tape.  He won more votes from women than Sanders, for instance.

The difference between me and you is that Trump is not the focal point of my entire reality.  I don't vote for people who not only don't represent me, but are actively opposed to almost everything I politically care about.  And sorry but repeating Trump's name at me as if his presence in a sentence should be enough on its own to scare me out of a coherent thought process doesn't work on me.  Trump is despicable, but every president of my adult life has been.  And Democrats have run every single campaign from 2004 onwards on the sole basis of "yeah we know but the other side is SO MUCH WORSE."  Biden is going to lose.  There's only so long that people can be abused this way.

Like for instance, "Backed the TPP", when Trump sank it.

What does this even mean.

Or "Voted for NAFTA" when Trump insisted it was terrible only to re-sign it with his name on it.

What relevance does this have to the point that the free trade agreements of the last 30 years have been deliberate efforts to undermine worker bargaining power and elevate corporate power above that of governments on the world stage, and political association with them is worthy of criticism.

Or "Didn't bail out or jail the crooked bankers" when he was Obama's VP, who did bail them out.

So his association with the Obama admin is a selling point, except when it comes to unpopular things Obama did, and then it's "he was just the VP he doesn't deserve criticism for that."  Got it.  Nice trick.

Some of those are also complex issues, such as the quote about 'opposing desegregation', when he supported many desegregation issues at the exact same time as the bill in question, just not that particular bill.



Same with stuff like 'didn't vow to legalize marijuana', which the President can't actually do.

Quote
The executive branch does have authority under the Controlled Substances Act (CSA) to reclassify cannabis without further action from Congress, but the details of the process involve steps by the attorney general and the health and human services secretary

Source

Nevermind that we're talking about differences in personal character and intention, not the legal limits of the office.  I care about whether the person elected is going to fight for the causes I care about.  I like how defeating Trump is the most important thing in the universe, but then suddenly when it comes to talking policy it's "Well actually the president doesn't matter that much.  Let's not get carried away."

Anyway - that list isn't mine, it was just conveniently available.  I wouldn't have bothered to include several items on it, or written them the way they were written.  Biden's unique position of involvement in pushing the Iraq War, the fucking over of my generation through student loans, and his role in the development of the for-profit mass incarceration industry are more than enough to completely disqualify him for me.  Disastrous foreign policy making the world a more dangerous place, systemic racism, and robbing younger generations of their future all in economic service to billionaires.  It's all there.  Why should I be willing to reward that with a vote.  Because I should be afraid of Trump?  We have 10 years to revolutionize our economy or I am almost certainly going to live to see civilization beginning to collapse as the environment unravels.  And my child won't live to see it because he's type 1 diabetic, and nobody running except Bernie is going to prevent the day from coming when falling wages + price hikes will lead to his preventable early death.  But I should vote based on norms and civility?  Try harder.
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Iduno

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #35409 on: March 11, 2020, 09:19:02 am »

The lesson of this election is that refutation of reality exists for Democratic voters as much as it does for Republicans. Most people don't vote based on policies - Bernie's policies were are far more in line with both the specific desires and general ethos of the Dem voters than Biden. And they certainly don't vote on character of the candidates.

Rather, the horrifying truth is that the deciding majority of the voters are deciding based on a combination of instruction from names they know and most of all an intangible inertial "feeling" of who's best. Anybody who's stuck with a Trumpist relation knows what this is like, you present rational arguments, they agree with those arguments, and then they say "but I just know he's good, you should give him a chance"!

In this, it is Biden who is Blue Trump, not Bernie. It doesn't matter that Biden is a segregationist and a rapist and will probably be dead soon - people don't think about it in those terms. They feel the vote. The consent manufacturing job the DNC and media pulled on and after SC was only another blow on top of that. Democracy can't function with voters who don't believe in reality, and if there's anything about Trump's America that I know for sure, it is that we are fresh out of reality.

That sounds awfully close to "Because he's not racist" to me.

Ok, now you're just openly trolling.
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Mephisto

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #35410 on: March 11, 2020, 09:32:21 am »

Ok, now you're just openly trolling.

You're not thinking with your political brain. If you don't understand the other side's point, you get to claim that it means whatever you want.
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Devastator

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #35411 on: March 11, 2020, 09:51:04 am »

Thank you Salmon.

I do have a different point of view than you, though.  I live in a place that was already fucked over by climate change, about fifteen to twenty years ago now.  It was bad, but it didn't end the world.  I also live in a place where many environmentalists are indiscriminate about their opposition to policy, such as from heavily opposing new hydropower projects due to them not being the right kind of clean energy.  It is also a place that has had a long series of, yes, centerist governments, which have done a great many important things for climate such as introducing effective carbon taxation-- no exceptions, on the province.  And they were defeated for not being green enough, mostly due to wanting to increase capacity with said hydro dam.

So.. from that point of view, I looked at Sanders.  And, well, what do I see.. no carbon tax, emissions goals of zero, immediate if not sooner time frame.  And no nuclear.  And an insistance that this and only this policy plan will do.  So I ask the question of 'well, what's the best way to accomplish these goals?'  And some of it works, and some of it doesn't, and a goal of say 90% reduction would be much easier, both in getting people to buy into the project and getting that part done.  And I look at equalization, and I see lots of good and reasonable policies, equally mixed with ones that are seem unreasonable or unnecessary, and then I sigh and remember that the situation didn't occur in a day.  The wealthy getting out of their taxation in the States happened over sixty years, and if half of his tax plan went through there's a huge amount of good that would be done, but Sanders doesn't know which half he can sell to the other half of the country, nor does he seem to care.

So.. yes.  I don't like Sanders because I think his policies are bad ways of getting his policy goals accomplished.  I do think there is lots he has done, like bring the $15 minimum wage into the mainstream, and getting some serious support for large-scale green investment done in the U.S.  And because of that, I think a good chunk of those goals will be accomplished regardless of nominee, even if not all of them.  And in my experience, most but not all could well be good enough, and maybe better than all of them.

There's nothing I can do to make your personal situation better, although I wish I could.  I also won't defend Biden's position on for profit prisons, though I will defend him on racism.

https://globalnews.ca/news/6359410/joe-biden-edited-video-racist-remarks/

That's not the only example of misleading video presenting Biden as being racist.

As for danger.. I don't know enough, so I'll take your word for that.
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Devastator

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #35412 on: March 11, 2020, 09:57:14 am »

Ok, now you're just openly trolling.

You're not thinking with your political brain. If you don't understand the other side's point, you get to claim that it means whatever you want.

Heh.  But no, as far as I can tell, Frumple's argument is they're used to whites being racist AF, so they wouldn't notice another racist white, and Biden has some contact with black communities, which is much more than they're used to, so they vote for him.

..However, none of that is evidence for Biden being racist, just ways for Biden to get black support despite being racist.  It leaves the main statement of "Biden is a racist" unsupported.

My suggestion is that he is able to create and maintain ties with the black community because he's not racist, and that they voted for him for both reasons.  It's hardly disproven by Frumples argument that they support him because they don't fear the establishment enough.

So.. if there's no measurable difference between the two scenarios, I'm going to go with the one that implies that black people who have worked with Biden know if he's racist or not, because I'd think they'd be able to tell.
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nenjin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #35413 on: March 11, 2020, 10:00:28 am »

Quote
because I'd think they'd be able to tell.

Because there is a zero percent chance that they worked with him for the money or the exposure despite the fact they hate his politics and his beliefs. Nope, zero chance of that. No current examples of that happening right now, either.

That's almost as bad as "I'm not racist, I have a black friend!" "I can't be racist, I have black employees that I pay!" "I can't be racist, I have Mexican employees I pay!"
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Egan_BW

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #35414 on: March 11, 2020, 10:14:33 am »

Ahh, Dev in ameripol. Two of my favorite headaches, now served together!~
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