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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4210391 times)

Reelya

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #34440 on: February 03, 2020, 08:50:56 am »

Quote
And it just reeks of Boomer memes

This is just eye-roll worthy and it's followed by a bunch of straw-man stuff. Nobody except yourself mentioned "degrees in underwater basket weaving". Pulling up made-up stuff like that is borderline ad hominem, poisoning the well.

The whole discussion was whether it's a waste that we're not creating jobs for people with master's degrees. That's stuff like MBAs and masters of science. Point is: if someones qualification isn't something other people need then how exactly do we justifying forcing other people to spend money on it? That will generally only lead to a worse allocation of resources than we have now, it creates a make-work / waste-work culture. It's like saying that because you made a shitty movie or shitty game we should force people to watch it / play it because otherwise the effort to create it would be wasted. No, the sensible thing is that you cut your losses and find something else to do.

We can go full communist about it, and pre-allocate education, but that does the same thing I said - you limit intake to only the places required for future job requirements. The trade-off would be that you take away student choice to a large degree. Yes, the state will fund you to study things, but only the exact things that are required by the planned economy. you'd no longer have the master's degree guy flipping burgers, but the reality would probably be that we was a burger-flipper from day one and didn't get the degree.

Accuses of ad hominem and straw man.  Proceeds to respond to a bunch of stuff I didn't say.

*shrug*

The paragraph about master's degrees is because that's why I was actually talking about.  It's re-railing what I was talking about and not letting you steer it into me defending something I wasn't even talking about, didn't even allude to. It's not straw manning. If you're not discussing that topic, then we literally have nothing to discuss, because that's the whole topic I was discussing and I'm not going to be railroaded into supporting some random other position just because it's your pet topic.

And the last paragraph is pointing out the alternative, and basically challenging you to come up with something better. Got anything?

I mean, if you don't want people's degrees wasted by not being utilized then the natural way to do that is to have a planned economy. The thing is, "masters degree guy ends up waiting tables" issue even happens in places like Sweden and Norway, the only place that wouldn't happen is if the government micro-manages what you study and what job you get afterwards. One possible argument is that "degrees should be free", which would be nice while you're getting the degree but in the long run would incentivize study regardless of whether the jobs are there after you graduate. In that case, you'd get a degree which is nice, but you'd have spent 3-4 years training for something that isn't there, so there's still the major expense of time that you could have been doing something else or saving up money.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2020, 09:03:39 am by Reelya »
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Doomblade187

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #34441 on: February 03, 2020, 09:12:16 am »

Well, as long as you can make a decent living regardless of degree, how is a 3-4 year education a waste?
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SalmonGod

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #34442 on: February 03, 2020, 01:00:06 pm »

The paragraph about master's degrees is because that's why I was actually talking about.  It's re-railing what I was talking about and not letting you steer it into me defending something I wasn't even talking about, didn't even allude to. It's not straw manning. If you're not discussing that topic, then we literally have nothing to discuss, because that's the whole topic I was discussing and I'm not going to be railroaded into supporting some random other position just because it's your pet topic.

And the last paragraph is pointing out the alternative, and basically challenging you to come up with something better. Got anything?

I said I mostly agree with you in response to that paragraph that you edited in, which was after I'd already written my response to that post.


The thing is, you don't need to fix things so masters degree graduates don't end up flipping burgers. You need to have a decent minimum wage and pretty much abolish the current student loans scheme, rather than the current strategy of just throwing more money down the hole. A good start would be a rule that private colleges cannot make more than X% of their income from federal student loans. That would clean the industry right up. Right now some of the most predatory private colleges get 85%+ of their revenue from the student loans scheme, so they're literally just leeches off the public system. Limiting how much they can take to, for example, 33% would mean that private colleges need to raise up-front tuition, which means students will be more vigilant, while also raising more money from industry partnerships, meaning it's more likely that they jobs are actually there at the end.

Ok, you edited that last paragraph in which circles back around to how the economy and education system should be structured more reasonably.  Don't know about the latter stuff about limiting revenue from federal student loans specifically.  But I agree that it's unrealistic to ever expect that everyone with a degree in a field can be guaranteed a job in that field, and eliminating predatory loan schemes + universally increasing economic justice for full-time work is the proper answer.  Not only for quality of life, but on the principle that education should be valued as more than the basis of a career.  If you can make a decent living flipping burgers, then you can also be more free to pursue self-actualization and push forward the intellectual maturity of humanity apart from whatever you do to make money.  Neoliberal productivist culture needs to die.  It's producing an epidemic of people who might have impressive job marketable technical skills, but have about as much understanding of logical fallacy, ethics, propaganda, etc as a caveman.  Gullible and ripe for dystopia.

Besides that, I was just explaining how some stuff you chose to highlight while explaining your position bugged me.  You continue repeating stuff about people studying 'stupid shit nobody wants' and getting 'useless degrees'.  You may not be using the same words, but you're repeating a common sentiment I've been hearing for the last 15 years, mostly passed down from Boomer culture.  And jokes about degrees in underwater basket weaving is the stereotypical way they've expressed it for a long time.  So I was drawing that comparison for you, because whether it's your main intended point or not, you're reinforcing the ideas that educations that don't result in jobs are useless (instead of recognizing that their value just isn't recognized economically) and that people who can't get jobs after graduating should blame themselves for making stupid decisions.  Surely you can understand how after the discourse surrounding this issue has focused on those ideas for years that it could seem to me like part of your messaging contains similar things?
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delphonso

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #34443 on: February 03, 2020, 10:55:28 pm »

Iowa caucus shows Bernie in the lead - according to friend on the ground. (Followed by Pete and then Warren.)

Naturegirl1999

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #34444 on: February 03, 2020, 10:58:28 pm »

.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2020, 11:45:49 am by Naturegirl1999 »
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #34445 on: February 03, 2020, 11:21:45 pm »

All chatter I'm picking up seems to be suggesting iowa is currently in a state of some kind of confusing recursive clusterfuck with no one quite sure what the hell's happening. Coin flips and pulling names out of hats are apparently getting involved.

Meanwhile I walk by the TV on the way to bed and there's people on it saying turnout is like, average at best.

Current mood: Let's just go to sleep and hope things make sense in the morning.
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hector13

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #34446 on: February 03, 2020, 11:24:14 pm »

I did that after the Scottish Independence referendum in 2015 and woke up to rioting.

By the winners.

It ultimately didn’t really clear anything up for me.
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sluissa

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #34447 on: February 04, 2020, 12:22:07 am »

Apparently the major fuckup is... unsurprisingly, the app they tried to use for reporting results. Although I'm sure there are a bunch of tiebreakers and second rounds going on.

Only 34 33 of 1765 precincts are reporting their final results.

EDIT: Yes, the Des Moines Register page apparently went down one precinct. Not sure what happened.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2020, 12:36:58 am by sluissa »
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Superdorf

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #34448 on: February 04, 2020, 12:36:23 am »

Stumbled on an article accusing Bernie of making promises he won't be able to fulfill should he take office. Not sure what to make of it.
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delphonso

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #34449 on: February 04, 2020, 12:51:36 am »

Nice.

No, no solid numbers from my buddy. Only 260 people at the caucus, but they had a lot of trouble handling it.

Rolan7

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #34450 on: February 04, 2020, 01:06:32 am »

It's fascinating that the Washington Post chose to run this right before the Iowa caucus, during a legal argument - one likely to succeed - that the President has literally unlimited power.

The executive branch can apparently refuse to acknowledge our mortal courts, it can certainly refuse to imprison people for student loan debts.  How strange that the Washington Post would run such a story anyway.

(they hate Bernie Sanders because they like their financial backers)
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sluissa

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #34451 on: February 04, 2020, 01:18:54 am »

It's fascinating that the Washington Post chose to run this right before the Iowa caucus, during a legal argument - one likely to succeed - that the President has literally unlimited power.

The executive branch can apparently refuse to acknowledge our mortal courts, it can certainly refuse to imprison people for student loan debts.  How strange that the Washington Post would run such a story anyway.

(they hate Bernie Sanders because they like their financial backers)

Washington -Monthly- not Washington Post.

Not sure how much stake to put into it as a news source.


Edit: Apparently they've announced there will be no results tonight. They plan to announce something more concrete tomorrow.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #34452 on: February 04, 2020, 07:26:33 am »

Hey...what's that smell? Why, it reminds me of...a rat.

Bernie or Dust 2020
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #34453 on: February 04, 2020, 07:40:20 am »

I mean, it doesn't smell like "rat" so much as "caucus". They're usually a clusterfuck, this one just seems to be either worse than usual or people are paying more attention to how much of a clusterfuck it is.

Though if there's one bright side to this mess, I've woken up to some of the campaigns apparently saying this is the death knell for the iowa caucus, and it might actually be turned into a primary or something in the near future. This whole thing could have been avoided and done with quicker with a simple ranked choice or whatever ballot.
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McTraveller

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #34454 on: February 04, 2020, 08:00:03 am »

It's fascinating that the Washington Post chose to run this right before the Iowa caucus, during a legal argument - one likely to succeed - that the President has literally unlimited power.
The only way I can see such a thing as fascinating is as if it's fascinating in the same way flat earth arguments are fascinating.  Unless people now really do just flat out ignore the Constitution, the President (and the executive) has clearly defined limits on authority.

Is that article fear mongering, or another example of post-modern "words only mean what you want them to mean, not what the author intended", or something else?
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