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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4210853 times)

Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #34365 on: January 28, 2020, 08:54:12 pm »

For myself, I have trouble trusting statistics because of those same pseudo-science groups. There's so much malicious manipulation that I have a kneejerk reaction to disbelieve things that are supported by statistics.

Like I'm aware that it's counter-intuitive and stupid to generalize like that, And I would never discount something outright because it's got some math or statistics I don't immediately get, but yeah. Reactions. Some people just run with em.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2020, 09:47:06 pm by Dunamisdeos »
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hector13

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #34366 on: January 28, 2020, 09:26:39 pm »

Statistics can be... manipulated isn’t the right word, but the same data set can show different things depending how it’s processed and presented.
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Folly

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #34367 on: January 28, 2020, 10:37:46 pm »

Statistics are certainly susceptible to misrepresentation. Still, I'd be much more inclined to trust an argument with dubious statistical interpretation over one driven by gut instinct or divine will, which is what we hear far too often.
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Kagus

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #34368 on: January 29, 2020, 04:36:00 am »

Statistics can be... manipulated isn’t the right word, but the same data set can show different things depending how it’s processed and presented.
And thus the old adage about three degrees of dishonesty:
  • Lies
  • Damn lies
  • Statistics

In more light-hearted news:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jan/27/npr-reporter-removed-from-pompeo-trip-in-retaliation-says-press-group

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jan/28/trump-praises-pompeo-rant-npr-reporter

Oh Pompeii, you lovable clown.

wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #34369 on: January 29, 2020, 05:20:45 am »

Critical thinking is NOT "I distrust what you tell me", it is "I distrust my own understanding."

The former leads to flat earthers.

The latter leads to quantum mechanics.
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LordBaal

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #34370 on: January 29, 2020, 09:04:29 am »

Critical thinking is NOT "I distrust what you tell me", it is "I distrust my own understanding."

The former leads to flat earthers.

The latter leads to quantum mechanics.

Can I sig this? In fact, can print it and replicate it onto the unwashed masses of shaved apes I share with everyday?
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SalmonGod

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #34371 on: January 29, 2020, 09:37:11 am »

Critical thinking is NOT "I distrust what you tell me", it is "I distrust my own understanding."

The former leads to flat earthers.

The latter leads to quantum mechanics.

Well... ideally it's "I don't automatically trust everything I'm told" in addition to "I allow myself to question my own understanding when exposed to new information, and actively pursue new information"

Maybe a little pedantic, but someone could easily misunderstand and run with what you said as "trust others more than yourself", which isn't good either.
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Zangi

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #34372 on: January 29, 2020, 10:09:15 am »

"Trust me, do not trust anyone that tells you different.  What I say is always the truth."
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LordBaal

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #34373 on: January 29, 2020, 10:51:29 am »

Don't trust anyone, not even me.

You can tell me you went in a rocket to the sun at nigth and back, I can either believe you or use my own understanding to know you are a liar, delusional or doing drugs.
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I'm curious as to how a tank would evolve. Would it climb out of the primordial ooze wiggling it's track-nubs, feeding on smaller jeeps before crawling onto the shore having evolved proper treds?
My ship exploded midflight, but all the shrapnel totally landed on Alpha Centauri before anyone else did.  Bow before me world leaders!

Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #34374 on: January 29, 2020, 01:42:10 pm »

What if I only THOUGHT I did drugs, and lied about it? What then?
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Max™

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #34375 on: January 29, 2020, 10:39:06 pm »

All this discussion of rational thought and pseudo-scientific hoodoo people doing their own experiments without noting that it really is important to note when sharing the results from your testing and explaining whether or not that rejects your hypothesis, if you aren't explaining why and how you might be wrong, or worse don't even think you might be... you're at best just fooling yourself, maybe other people studying the same question as well, and at worst you can end up fooling those with no reason to suspect otherwise.

Science is a lot better at identifying why falsehoods aren't right than it is at providing some sort of unshakeable truths, so you get people who hear just enough of an explanation about why we try to test falsifiable ideas to think "well clearly it's just a matter of proving to everyone else that I'm right" before they set off to make another stupid fucking youtube video about "stupid fucking hoax that you'll never believe some vague group doesn't want you to know for stupid fucking reasons #3.14159265358979323846..." and raking in that advertiser cash.

Sucks that being humble enough to admit "I was wrong" or even just "I might not be right" is less cozy than doubling down on crazy and declaring that the world is against you for being so awesomely right and clever.

Tends to result in fewer clicks and likes too, so aside from the appreciation folks have been developing for various "local subject expert" folks popping up we're looking at a continued slide towards ever more excitingly disappointing levels of dumbfuckery, hooray!

Though there's a slim chance the witness vote in the next day or two doesn't end up along party lines... I'm not expecting any GOP spine growth discoveries, and in fact I'll go ahead and predict one or two democrats vote to acquit so I get to be right or slightly less disappointed... hurr-eh.
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sluissa

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #34376 on: January 31, 2020, 04:43:39 pm »

Ok, so, Senators weren't always elected by popular vote. At the beginning Senators were elected by state legislators. The 17th amendment changed that so that they were elected by the people rather than by other politicians.

I'm not going to go so far as to say we should go back to that. There are a lot of good reasons to have senators elected by the people and give people more representation and say in government. However the founders obviously didn't consider the country being run that way. Because of that, I think the 17th amendment has broken some things. Most notably, and most relevant at the moment, impeachment.

As originally designed, the house of representatives were supposed to be the representatives of the people, directly elected, and tasked with bringing their constituents' issues to congress. The Senate, on the other hand, was supposed to be a moderating force. Separated by a step or two from the electorate, they'd have a more free hand to debate, consider, and sometimes make decisions and vote in ways that would make people angry, but (ideally) be for the overall good of the country.

Breaking that separation between them and the electorate has tied the hands of senators. Placing everything they do on the debate floor under the constant vigil of C-SPAN has only made it worse. In the cases of highly partisan, highly publicized issues like impeachment, or judicial confirmations, no matter what Senators may think, or wish to do or say, they're unable to do their jobs of properly of arguing for or against something their party disagrees with. They're unable to even publicly show division from their party in a lot of cases, out of fear of the next election.

Now, in argument for directly elected senators, I must go no further than to point out the quality of character of our politicians and how unpopular they tend to be, even among their own constituents. I wouldn't trust most of them as far as I could throw them, so some manner of being accountable is reasonable, and given our system of government, the only manner of being accountable to the people for anything short of criminal charges is simply to vote them out at the next election. (They can be accountable to their peers in the senate, and the senate can and has exercised that ability to unseat a senator.) Power corrupts, and it's good to have a method, of trying to keep the whole system from becoming so corrupt that it rots from within. But having a good reason for the 17th amendment doesn't change the fact that it inadvertently broke other parts of the governmental process that didn't account for direct election of senators to be a thing.
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PTTG??

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #34377 on: January 31, 2020, 04:51:33 pm »

There was never a mythical age of good politicians. This country was founded by rapists, murderers, and slaveholders for god's sake.

Any problems with democracy today stem from its subversion rather than its close following. If we were speaking after a century of fine, free, and public education, and while there were strong restrictions on the power of the wealthy to signal boost themselves above the facts, Democracy would preserve these and other public goods far better than hoping for third-hand or fourth-hand representatives would follow a better course than they must in order to remain in power.
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Iduno

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #34378 on: January 31, 2020, 04:53:35 pm »

Also, I'm not sure the founding fathers' plans were great. They thought that the best way to prevent having a king, is to elect a single powerful person to president, to keep congress in check.
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Superdorf

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #34379 on: January 31, 2020, 04:55:54 pm »

As I understand it, the founding fathers were partly looking to prevent an excess of democracy-- "tyranny of the mob" and all that. This was around the time of the French Revolution, recall.
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