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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4211027 times)

JoshuaFH

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #34335 on: January 28, 2020, 01:27:30 pm »

I suppose to get back to my original question, about the mindset of the Trump supporting population: that the older and Christian folk may have twisted political motivations due to their belief structure being corrupted by opportunistic, careerist bastards for who-knows-how long. Among other things.

I just hate strawmanning people as simple idiots, or as evil, I want to know their perspectives and motivations inside and out. That, and believing that the world has simply been seized by insanity is suicidally depressing; I'd like to believe there's real rationality that can be sussed out, if only so I can believe in a sane world. Not necessary a just or fair world, just a sane one.
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Kagus

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #34336 on: January 28, 2020, 01:41:41 pm »

If my uncle and his family are anything to go by, a lot of them aren't insane or evil or even hateful... They're just incredibly, irrepressibly gullible.

As such, they fall victim to those who speak with utter conviction and booming voices. Only need a handful of the really evil and manipulative ones to get a whole flock of otherwise innocent bystanders trailing them around. At which point, they are fully and completely capable of believing and chanting something which they don't actually believe in or practice at all; because they sorely lack introspection and critical thinking.


The world isn't evil, it's just stupid.

SalmonGod

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #34337 on: January 28, 2020, 02:08:50 pm »

I just hate strawmanning people as simple idiots, or as evil, I want to know their perspectives and motivations inside and out. That, and believing that the world has simply been seized by insanity is suicidally depressing; I'd like to believe there's real rationality that can be sussed out, if only so I can believe in a sane world. Not necessary a just or fair world, just a sane one.

I relate to this deeply, and I often feel like most people's conversations on this topic amount to handwaves.  It's gets really frustrating.

I don't think most of it has to do with people being stupid, either, at least not for a very comprehensive idea of what stupid means.  There's many different kinds of intelligence.  Somebody can be gullible to fascist rhetoric, but be an incredibly talented engineer or whatever.

Rather than stupidity, I look at it as our psychology has mechanisms.  Information is communicated and processed between all the facets of our mind in certain ways, and those processes aren't perfect.  They have security vulnerabilities.  Gaps that are open to be filled with bad stuff.  Switches vulnerable to flicking that should not be flicked.  A magician could probably spend hours explaining them to you.  It takes training and conscious effort to be resistant to being mentally fucked with.  Ever notice that the people most likely to see through bullshit and treat others kindly are also often people who have personally been fucked around with and treated horribly by others in the past?  They learned from those experiences.  Nobody's just born that way.  Not even the "smartest" person.

And the authoritarian organizations of the 20th century devoted massive amounts of resources to learning all about humanity's psychological vulnerabilities.  Propaganda and advertising became hard sciences last century, but you could just as easily call them black magic.  They're powerful forces, and none of us are immune to them.

And if you want a couple tidbits as a starter to looking at things this way... I think projection and confirmation bias are the two most powerful forces in sociology.  When you start looking, you'll see them happening everywhere.  And you're likely guilty of them often enough yourself, unless you're specifically aware of and vigilant against them.  Because they're not products of stupidity.  They're side-effects of our psychological structure.  The way the mind processes information to achieve its goals.

Also really helpful to understanding the world's insanity: everyone's mental health hinges on positive self-image.  Those who are unable or unwilling to put in the work to attain what they view as positive attributes will either delude their worldview to compensate, or project their self-hatred onto others in order to cope.

Last one I'll throw out is loneliness.  Loneliness has deep, powerful effects on our psychology, and one of capitalism's features that emerges through the drive to maximize profit extraction from workers and consumers is that there is immense pressure exerted via the demands of working life and the organizational structures that build up around these things to turn every human being into an isolated unit who only interacts with other human beings via transactions can be easily tracked, measured, and commodified in every aspect possible.  This really, really fucks with us.  And I don't mean that in the sense that it makes us miserable.  It does.  But it also deeply alters the way we perceive things and process information.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2020, 02:11:34 pm by SalmonGod »
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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #34338 on: January 28, 2020, 03:27:09 pm »

Too real, SalmonGod. In US politics, people are stupid until they spontaneously decide that we're right about everything.

More earnestly, I think it's safe to say there's a mixture of forces, and you've described some of the most critical ones. I do think that, to a certain extent, some attributes such as amenability to education, critical thinking, memory, empathy, and creativity do play a role in determining what set of policies one supports... and from there, directly or indirectly, what political party (or none) you belong to.

That could be simplified into saying "smart people end up being {Example Party Redacted}," but there's a whole lot of nuance that gets lost... and even in the clearest cases, it's only one force among others, not the major driving factor.
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Naturegirl1999

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #34339 on: January 28, 2020, 03:40:12 pm »

In my schools, critical thinking was emphasized, apparently not all American schools are like this, that could be one of the reasons critical thinking isn’t as common as it should be, not all teachers want to take the time to teach it
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Lord Shonus

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #34340 on: January 28, 2020, 04:12:51 pm »

I understand people in the religion can be motivated by bettering the world, the mask and facade I am mentioning is the reason the religion was created in the first place, to control people. I understand people join them for various reasons.

Whenever you start talking about "pulling back the mask" on anything, you're entering into serious "I'm the only thinking person among all these sheeple" conspiracy territory. In virtually all cases, it is closer to "I ripped the face off so I could inject my own biases into this, now I'm convincing other people who are in exactly the right frame of mind to swallow all my arguments without question."

To use an example, you see enormous numbers of people repeating the religious claims from The Da Vinci Code as fact, but a little research will show that virtually every verifiable claim Brown makes is false, and the claims that are not verifiable are not supported by much of anything. Yet people believed him wholeheartedly because they had exactly the right level of skepticism toward the Catholic Church at the time to buy into it.
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #34341 on: January 28, 2020, 04:15:01 pm »

I've got two people who are close to me who also openly support Trump.

Both of them have a really, really difficult life situation. For the first, her family has abused and abandoned her for decades. Her health is failing irreversibly. She spent the last half of her working years trying to raise her grandkids, and she wasn't able to continue doing that. She has almost nothing left. Falls firmly into the loneliness category. The other fell victim to some very predatory scams that were legal (under republican and democrat leadership both) and basically destroyed his chances at progress in life and invalidated years of hard, valid effort at improving himself. He blames the government (partially correct) and is paranoid of it happening again to himself or others. He not only falls into the loneliness category, but also into the confirmation bias category. He's starting to get back on his feet and is starting to detach from the far-right rhetoric (he remains firmly conservative).

They've both latched onto Trump as an outlet. Trump insists that the factors that caused their life to slide are someone else's fault, specifically liberalism and the democratic party, and that he's going to make them pay. It doesn't matter how, or when, or even if he can, or how much of it is true. They've spent so long in hopelessness that they'll take anything at this point. Noone but him has ever even spoken publicly about their issues. It's a cult tactic. They finally have validation, even if it's false. It's been intoxicating to them to have any direction whatsoever, and they swallowed the rest of his hateful bullshit along with it.

Obviously there are other types of people with other kinds of reasons to support Trump. The super rich like money. The bigots love him because they love bigotry. And these two examples had a choice, no matter what. But it does help to understand them as much as possible. Can I say that they wouldn't have become these people if their circumstances had been different? No, I can't. Can I say that these factors heavily contributed to their choices? Yes, emphatically.
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Naturegirl1999

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #34342 on: January 28, 2020, 04:24:43 pm »

I understand people in the religion can be motivated by bettering the world, the mask and facade I am mentioning is the reason the religion was created in the first place, to control people. I understand people join them for various reasons.

Whenever you start talking about "pulling back the mask" on anything, you're entering into serious "I'm the only thinking person among all these sheeple" conspiracy territory. In virtually all cases, it is closer to "I ripped the face off so I could inject my own biases into this, now I'm convincing other people who are in exactly the right frame of mind to swallow all my arguments without question."

To use an example, you see enormous numbers of people repeating the religious claims from The Da Vinci Code as fact, but a little research will show that virtually every verifiable claim Brown makes is false, and the claims that are not verifiable are not supported by much of anything. Yet people believed him wholeheartedly because they had exactly the right level of skepticism toward the Catholic Church at the time to buy into it.
All I meant by this is that religion is yet another tool for gaining power. I’m not saying everyone in a religion is stupid, I’m saying that religions aren’t as pure as some would like you to believe. I used to think Christianity was actually about helping people, then I took an intro to Western Civ class and learned its origins, and that it has been and is still used by popes and clergy to keep and gain power, sometimes by telling the followers that reality is a lie. The “mask” I’m referring to is simply the claim that religions have no ulterior motive. I don’t want anyone to believe someone without question, no matter how much they say they are good intentioned. I want people to think critically, to ask questions, to research, to experiment, to discover. I’m not saying “listen to me, follow me without question” I’m saying “I used to think religions were about helping people, I eventually learned this was not the case” While it might help some, its main purpose is control/indoctrination. If people never learn to question anything, they will be more easily indoctrinated with anything. Religion seems to be a common example, but it is certainly not the only one.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2020, 04:32:53 pm by Naturegirl1999 »
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IronyOwl

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #34343 on: January 28, 2020, 04:32:19 pm »

I suppose to get back to my original question, about the mindset of the Trump supporting population: that the older and Christian folk may have twisted political motivations due to their belief structure being corrupted by opportunistic, careerist bastards for who-knows-how long. Among other things.

I just hate strawmanning people as simple idiots, or as evil, I want to know their perspectives and motivations inside and out. That, and believing that the world has simply been seized by insanity is suicidally depressing; I'd like to believe there's real rationality that can be sussed out, if only so I can believe in a sane world. Not necessary a just or fair world, just a sane one.
This is an abysmal place to search for that (I would unironically suggest 4chan as a less hateful and bitter place to discuss politics, and certainly a more likely place to hear from Trump supporters), but since you're curious and I have an anecdote I might as well share.

I know a guy who loves Trump, or at least hates his enemies. Which, in a rotting two-party system like we've got is sometimes all it takes. He sometimes rants about the usual, generic stuff (clowns in office, literal traitors, etc), but probably the most extreme thing he mentions is how "our very democracy is being threatened" or similar because the Democrats and left-wing media are trying to overturn a democratically elected president. This is quite literally and objectively true, and the implied addendum of "without a good reason" isn't a difficult or uncommon position to hold.

The big thing, though, and the thing that got him on board in the first place, was China. He's got a uniquely poor view of Asian imports because he was on the frontlines of Japan destroying vast swathes of the American electronics industry way back in the day. How much of that plays into his currently sour opinion of China and how much of it was the flagrant spying, anti-commercial practices, intellectual property theft, etc etc is up for debate, but the result is that he sees China as a massive and overtly malicious economic nemesis, and accordingly sees the politicians just kinda going along with this as buffoons or outright traitors. A favorite phrase of his- well before Trump was a thing- is disgustedly claiming we gave China "favored nation trading status" while all of this was going on. I don't actually know how true that last bit is/was, but again, none of the above is particularly hardline or unreasonable.

So to summarize: We have a politician going after the enemies we need to deal with when nobody else would, while under fire from complacent buffoons and cartoonishly evil traitors. That's... pretty much the ideal narrative for every politician, really, and the way you'll see both the people in question and their ardent supporters phrase it, in politics and elsewhere. I think the real stumbling block you're running into is in presuming that people need some kind of exotic secret sauce to support Trump, as opposed to Bernie or Biden or Harris or Vermin Supreme. Sometimes there's good reasons, sometimes there's bad... but it doesn't have to be overwhelming or unique. It just has to be better than the alternatives in some channel of importance or another.


In my schools, critical thinking was emphasized, apparently not all American schools are like this, that could be one of the reasons critical thinking isn’t as common as it should be, not all teachers want to take the time to teach it
In my schooling critical thinking was emphasized as a vague buzzword that mostly boiled down to "write longer essays about this thing you hate you miserable brats." I don't think the framework for school really supports genuine critical thinking very well, because you're perpetually taking orders from a jackass to do it.
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Lord Shonus

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #34344 on: January 28, 2020, 04:52:33 pm »

I understand people in the religion can be motivated by bettering the world, the mask and facade I am mentioning is the reason the religion was created in the first place, to control people. I understand people join them for various reasons.

Whenever you start talking about "pulling back the mask" on anything, you're entering into serious "I'm the only thinking person among all these sheeple" conspiracy territory. In virtually all cases, it is closer to "I ripped the face off so I could inject my own biases into this, now I'm convincing other people who are in exactly the right frame of mind to swallow all my arguments without question."

To use an example, you see enormous numbers of people repeating the religious claims from The Da Vinci Code as fact, but a little research will show that virtually every verifiable claim Brown makes is false, and the claims that are not verifiable are not supported by much of anything. Yet people believed him wholeheartedly because they had exactly the right level of skepticism toward the Catholic Church at the time to buy into it.
All I meant by this is that religion is yet another tool for gaining power. I’m not saying everyone in a religion is stupid, I’m saying that religions aren’t as pure as some would like you to believe. I used to think Christianity was actually about helping people, then I took an intro to Western Civ class and learned its origins, and that it has been and is still used by popes and clergy to keep and gain power, sometimes by telling the followers that reality is a lie. The “mask” I’m referring to is simply the claim that religions have no ulterior motive. I don’t want anyone to believe someone without question, no matter how much they say they are good intentioned. I want people to think critically, to ask questions, to research, to experiment, to discover. I’m not saying “listen to me, follow me without question” I’m saying “I used to think religions were about helping people, I eventually learned this was not the case” While it might help some, its main purpose is control/indoctrination. If people never learn to question anything, they will be more easily indoctrinated with anything. Religion seems to be a common example, but it is certainly not the only one.

"Intro to" history or sociology classes generally provide nothing more than the most sweeping overview and are generally not worth much except as a "we're getting everybody on the same page for the class that will actually teach you something." primer. To make matters worse, these are usually assigned to either novice instructors or to the tenured old assholes that have an agenda to push, because the more capable teachers don't want to waste their time. From everything you've said, what you've been taught is on the level of the "PEARL HARBOR WAS A FALSE FLAG!" nonsense that some local professors are pushing.
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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #34345 on: January 28, 2020, 04:59:52 pm »

The Atlantic's opinion page describes a hypothesis that, in part, suggests that anti-Hillary efforts might have pushed the country to the left.
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nenjin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #34346 on: January 28, 2020, 05:12:34 pm »

I'll believe that after the elections. Right now, confirmation-bias acknowledged, the country doesn't seem to be moving left due to anything Trump or the Republicans are doing.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #34347 on: January 28, 2020, 05:13:21 pm »

The whole 2016 election gave rise to the current American left and increased it's popularity, but I'm not seeing where that is in this article?

Anyway, yeah the fun part of the Dark Timelines that can arise from this primary is that the DNC is fucked either way. Bernie gets in and the neoliberals get purged, or Bernie doesn't get in and the neoliberals get purged later because Bernie's own policies are now the standard set of desires from people who vote Democratic. He's already conquered the base, ideologically if not personally, and only the leadership and their boomer doners remain with the DNC. For now.

Personally though, I would prefer to live in the timeline where we don't all die and the DNC gets purged by Berniecrats, so let's aim for that one.
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Naturegirl1999

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #34348 on: January 28, 2020, 05:36:09 pm »

I understand people in the religion can be motivated by bettering the world, the mask and facade I am mentioning is the reason the religion was created in the first place, to control people. I understand people join them for various reasons.

Whenever you start talking about "pulling back the mask" on anything, you're entering into serious "I'm the only thinking person among all these sheeple" conspiracy territory. In virtually all cases, it is closer to "I ripped the face off so I could inject my own biases into this, now I'm convincing other people who are in exactly the right frame of mind to swallow all my arguments without question."

To use an example, you see enormous numbers of people repeating the religious claims from The Da Vinci Code as fact, but a little research will show that virtually every verifiable claim Brown makes is false, and the claims that are not verifiable are not supported by much of anything. Yet people believed him wholeheartedly because they had exactly the right level of skepticism toward the Catholic Church at the time to buy into it.
All I meant by this is that religion is yet another tool for gaining power. I’m not saying everyone in a religion is stupid, I’m saying that religions aren’t as pure as some would like you to believe. I used to think Christianity was actually about helping people, then I took an intro to Western Civ class and learned its origins, and that it has been and is still used by popes and clergy to keep and gain power, sometimes by telling the followers that reality is a lie. The “mask” I’m referring to is simply the claim that religions have no ulterior motive. I don’t want anyone to believe someone without question, no matter how much they say they are good intentioned. I want people to think critically, to ask questions, to research, to experiment, to discover. I’m not saying “listen to me, follow me without question” I’m saying “I used to think religions were about helping people, I eventually learned this was not the case” While it might help some, its main purpose is control/indoctrination. If people never learn to question anything, they will be more easily indoctrinated with anything. Religion seems to be a common example, but it is certainly not the only one.

"Intro to" history or sociology classes generally provide nothing more than the most sweeping overview and are generally not worth much except as a "we're getting everybody on the same page for the class that will actually teach you something." primer. To make matters worse, these are usually assigned to either novice instructors or to the tenured old assholes that have an agenda to push, because the more capable teachers don't want to waste their time. From everything you've said, what you've been taught is on the level of the "PEARL HARBOR WAS A FALSE FLAG!" nonsense that some local professors are pushing.
I was never taught Pearl Harbor was a false flag. What I was taught, is that various leaders used various religions to get the people ready for war, that the Pope had power on par with the long, and that when Christianity had more power than the state, the pursuit of knowledge was suppressed, and that various empires fell due to civil war as well as conquerings from the outside
« Last Edit: January 28, 2020, 05:38:37 pm by Naturegirl1999 »
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Lord Shonus

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #34349 on: January 28, 2020, 06:06:51 pm »

I understand people in the religion can be motivated by bettering the world, the mask and facade I am mentioning is the reason the religion was created in the first place, to control people. I understand people join them for various reasons.

Whenever you start talking about "pulling back the mask" on anything, you're entering into serious "I'm the only thinking person among all these sheeple" conspiracy territory. In virtually all cases, it is closer to "I ripped the face off so I could inject my own biases into this, now I'm convincing other people who are in exactly the right frame of mind to swallow all my arguments without question."

To use an example, you see enormous numbers of people repeating the religious claims from The Da Vinci Code as fact, but a little research will show that virtually every verifiable claim Brown makes is false, and the claims that are not verifiable are not supported by much of anything. Yet people believed him wholeheartedly because they had exactly the right level of skepticism toward the Catholic Church at the time to buy into it.
All I meant by this is that religion is yet another tool for gaining power. I’m not saying everyone in a religion is stupid, I’m saying that religions aren’t as pure as some would like you to believe. I used to think Christianity was actually about helping people, then I took an intro to Western Civ class and learned its origins, and that it has been and is still used by popes and clergy to keep and gain power, sometimes by telling the followers that reality is a lie. The “mask” I’m referring to is simply the claim that religions have no ulterior motive. I don’t want anyone to believe someone without question, no matter how much they say they are good intentioned. I want people to think critically, to ask questions, to research, to experiment, to discover. I’m not saying “listen to me, follow me without question” I’m saying “I used to think religions were about helping people, I eventually learned this was not the case” While it might help some, its main purpose is control/indoctrination. If people never learn to question anything, they will be more easily indoctrinated with anything. Religion seems to be a common example, but it is certainly not the only one.

"Intro to" history or sociology classes generally provide nothing more than the most sweeping overview and are generally not worth much except as a "we're getting everybody on the same page for the class that will actually teach you something." primer. To make matters worse, these are usually assigned to either novice instructors or to the tenured old assholes that have an agenda to push, because the more capable teachers don't want to waste their time. From everything you've said, what you've been taught is on the level of the "PEARL HARBOR WAS A FALSE FLAG!" nonsense that some local professors are pushing.
I was never taught Pearl Harbor was a false flag. What I was taught, is that various leaders used various religions to get the people ready for war, that the Pope had power on par with the long, and that when Christianity had more power than the state, the pursuit of knowledge was suppressed, and that various empires fell due to civil war as well as conquerings from the outside

You misunderstand me. I'm saying that what you have been taught is about as historically accurate as "Pearl Harbor was a false flag" not that you'd actually been taught that. To be more explicit since you've provided details:

Quote
What I was taught, is that various leaders used various religions to get the people ready for war,
This happened, but rarely. Much more often, religion was used as a shallow justification for wars fought for other reasons. For example, the 30 Years War is often cited as a Catholic Vs. Prostestant holy war, but this is true only on a surface level. The Protestant-Catholic fight had already been settled in the HRE by the establishment of Cuius regio, eius religio in 1555, declaring that the official religion of a holding was determined by the religion of the landholder. There was some conflict caused by the fact that newer branches of Protestantism such as Calvinism and the Anabaptists were not included, but it stabilized things quite well. A much more important factor in the war was struggles for dominance between the two branches of the Hapsburg dynasty, complicated a little later by the Vasa dynasty of Sweden on the "Protestant" side (who was supported by Catholic France in order to strengthen the relative power of the House of Bourbon - this paid off well enough that the throne of Spain passed from the Hapsburgs to the Bourbons). Or, in other words, it was as much a Hapsburg-Hapsburg-Vasa war that Bourbon won as it was a religious conflict.

Quote
that the Pope had power on par with the long,
Rarely true. Even in those times where the pope did have real power, he was often heavily influenced by one or more "lesser" kings, most famously Philip II of Spain.

Quote
and that when Christianity had more power than the state, the pursuit of knowledge was suppressed

Total myth. Most of the great scientific discoveries of the Middle and Renaissance era were made by clergy or "natural philosophers" working directly under the auspices of the Church. Persons such as Galileo are often pushed as "science martyrs", but there is almost invariably far more to the story than this simplistic statement suggests. The primary charge against Galileo was, for example, not simply promoting heliocentric-ism (after vehemently denouncing it when his rival Kepler proposed it) but for promoting it as fact without sufficient evidence - at the time, it was assumed that orbits (regardless of what body they were going around) were circular, and observational data fit a circular orbit around the Earth much better than they did a circular orbit around the sun. It wasn't until Kepler's notion of elliptical orbits was accepted that solar orbits began to fit with the data. When Thomas Aquinas - who, among many other scientific accomplishments, postulated a crude version of the theory of evolution - was up for canonization, the Church waived the protest that he had no attributed miracles by declaring that his scientific research was miracle enough.

The modern "anti-science" push in Christianity didn't really get firm ground until the 19th century - and developed primarily because prominent atheists of the era had a tendency to hold up every new "discovery" (most of which have since been proven to be bunk, like spontaneous generation and the luminous aether) as proof that all religion was false.
 
Of equal importance, there was no time when "the state" existed as a concept when Christianity was more powerful. The concept of statehood is a very modern one, not cropping up until the late 17th and early 18th centuries. Prior to that, you had broad cultural identities, but most people didn't particularly care that they lived in Saxony instead of Bavaria unless one lord or the other was far more intrusive.
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, and that various empires fell due to civil war as well as conquerings from the outside
This was a normal part of the life cycle of nations for centuries, and may still be today.
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