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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4469140 times)

McTraveller

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #33435 on: November 28, 2019, 08:30:29 am »

I think rule by true democratic majority only works for certain aspects of human interaction and only up to some population and/or geographic area limit that is probably way smaller than any government really wants.  I'd say something like 10k-100k, but then you get exceptions like major urban areas with populations in the 1M range.  The size of what we have today as nations (10M-1B) is clearly intractable due to rule of large numbers; "minorities" are 10s of millions of people.

Without some external standard (whatever "the optimum" means), and some will to adhere to it, no government (pure democratic majority, small ruling group, or single leader) will long avoid tyranny.  I mean the US is not even 250 years old...

Actually an interesting thought related to what Rolan7 just posted:  why is it that some "minority agendas" can get pushed through but others cannot (or are much more difficult)?  I think the problem in the US is the "majority" that is ruling is money, not population.

Until society gets back to population desires, rather than money-weighted population desires, we're going to be in worse shape.
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #33436 on: November 28, 2019, 08:32:48 am »

Agreed.
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Rolan7

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #33437 on: November 28, 2019, 08:40:57 am »

It seems more natural than the Right's combination of corporate interests and... moral conservativism.  It's amazing to me how well the Right stays together.  They do have the campaign money and politicized pulpits, it's just remarkable how strong a union they formed.
But actually it's not surprising at all, is it, since corporate interests are *also* deeply allied with classical liberals, IE the majority of the Democratic party.  People willing to use social progress as a shiny carrot to distract from the root cause of the social injustice - concentration of wealth.  They're certainly more willing to regulate business (for long-term survival), and push through social progress (once it has overwhelming public support), but the party is still deeply in cahoots with lobbyists and led by billionaires.

The two sides aren't the same, but they both benefit from the status quo alongside corporate interests.

Turning what would otherwise *BE* a strong, unified majority (which largely aligns on the views of certain issues), into a plurality of small minorities, and pitting them against each other--- THAT is how the GOP (and also the democratic party) sustain themselves, and their platforms.

It's not "99% of US residents VS 1% that owns everything", now instead it is "Whites VS Blacks Vs Asians, Vs Hispanics, VS $Other".  It's "Straight VS Gay", and "Pro choice VS Pro Life".


Identity politics is the death of democracy, because by its very nature, it divides what is otherwise a unified whole, that has aligned interests.


"Social Justice" movements latch on to identity politics to gain momentum and power.  Is being shit on as a minority view holder shit? ABSOLUTELY.  Is having 99% of the public getting fucked financially, legally, and politically worse, because the message is being diverted, and exploited by the powerful much much worse?

Yes. Yes it is.
Isn't intersectionality the answer to that?  My understanding is that it's the idea that multiple oppressed groups should pool their resources to fight overall oppression, rather than each small group clawing over each other for air.
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scriver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #33438 on: November 28, 2019, 08:45:57 am »

*meme of the international league of nationalists goes here*
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Reelya

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #33439 on: November 28, 2019, 09:29:08 am »

Isn't intersectionality the answer to that?  My understanding is that it's the idea that multiple oppressed groups should pool their resources to fight overall oppression, rather than each small group clawing over each other for air.

But that's called "solidarity" not "intersectionality".

Intersectionality doesn't *in practice* work anything at all like solidarity. It's the Intersection of the Venn Diagram, not the Union which is highlighted in almost all mentions of intersectionality.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality
Quote
Intersectionality, also called intersectional feminism, is a branch of feminism asserting that all aspects of social and political identities (gender, race, class, sexuality, disability, etc.) discrimination overlap (or "intersect"). For example, race with gender in the case of a black woman. Intersectionality aims to separate itself from white feminism by acknowledging the fact that all women have different experiences and identities.[1] It is a qualitative analytic framework that identifies how interlocking systems of power affect those who are most marginalized in society.

The point being is that it makes a hierarchy out of how many points you are on the intersection of, and actively devalues the input of groups or people with less intersections. It then defines a "good side" (oppressed) and a "bad side" (oppressor) of each intersecting set, and you have inherently less right to contribute the more "wrong sides" you are on for each line. Also, there is a hierarchy of the hierarchies themselves - and this is just about as far down the rabbit hole of tokenism as you can get.

For example, we focus on intersectionality with black women, but very rarely if at all on intersectionality with black men. The fight for racial equality is thus subsumed by the ideological movement. The idea is that if you only focus on black women in the context of feminism then the rights of black men will just float along as if by magic. This is actually *appropriation* of the reality of racism to serve the political needs of the ideology itself. The reality is that if you only focus on black women as a special class of women with "extra patriarchy" then you completely fail to deal with the actual real mechanisms behind racism, failing both black men and black women, in pursuit of what is in effect ideological purity. Also, if there's a black woman who's not actually all "feministy" I'm kinda guessing the "intersectional" movement doesn't have a lot of time to listen to what she has to say. Promoting the views of only black women who happen to agree with your movement is almost the definition of tokenistic behavior. There are a ton of black women in America who are religious and pro-life. I'm guessing the "intersectional" feminists are inviting them to speak? /sarcasm

Similarly, they make a thing of "ableism" when it suits them, but if you're a straight cis white guy in a wheelchair, i'm pretty sure you can go fuck yourself - No special "intersectional" points for you - which pretty much shows that they're more concerned with appropriating the pity-points of the disabled than actually listening to how disabled people feel. if you're a disabled feminist then maybe.

This is exactly the opposite of a solidarity based approach.

EDIT: Virtually every one has at least one trait that they could be said to be on the "privileged" "oppressor" side of the line, so there's a lot of infighting, backstabbing and victimhood e-peen measuring. For example you see this when the twitter mob turns on some white feminist woman for some perceived slight: they suddenly focus on their whiteness, while when they're still saying things we agree with, we focus on their womanness. Or if it's a black man, you can switch focus from his blackness when he says something you like, to his man-ness when he says something you don't like. What this aspect of intersectionality culture actually does is provide post-hoc justifications for why we shouldn't have to listen to people we disagree with, or to justify why someone else has to listen to someone we agree with.

"Solidarity" is actually the healthier version of pulling together. In solidarity, people work together even if they don't have any traits in common, rather than only "intersecting" having meaning. For example, unionists and gay people can work together. It doesn't make fuck all difference if there are "gay unionists". Being gay and being in a union have absolutely nothing to do with each other. It's effectively a meaningless distraction, and divisive, to focus only on the value people who "intersect".

My prediction is that it's likely that the intersectional type feminism will eventually implode and be replaced by some other doctrine, some sort of 4th wave variant.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2019, 10:52:59 am by Reelya »
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Iduno

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #33440 on: November 28, 2019, 10:31:45 am »

This happened before, didn't it? I'm not remembering this from the future, am I?

Also vote Sanders for mass trials of ICE jackboots, etc.
I think you have high hopes of what a change in president can do, or are willing to sacrifice democracy to get there.

They can do a lot, and are absolutely willing to sacrifice democracy to do so. But not if it's anything good. That's why we've had the last 3 presidents implementing these policies.
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Rolan7

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #33441 on: November 28, 2019, 11:36:30 am »

As an aside, good luck to everyone meeting relatives for Thanksgiving. I should be fine, this branch of family is pretty tolerant or at least discreet at the reunion table. I'm kinda glad my dad's elsewhere though because, for a classical liberal, he sure enjoys starting... discussions.

If I get that urge, I can simply see if reelya is done explaining intersectionality yet :P
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Doomblade187

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #33442 on: November 28, 2019, 11:49:28 am »

This happened before, didn't it? I'm not remembering this from the future, am I?

Also vote Sanders for mass trials of ICE jackboots, etc.
I think you have high hopes of what a change in president can do, or are willing to sacrifice democracy to get there.

They can do a lot, and are absolutely willing to sacrifice democracy to do so. But not if it's anything good. That's why we've had the last 3 presidents implementing these policies.
Yes, but Obama wasn't that far left. Firmly center imo. Unfortunately, he was definitely involved in perpetuating the police state. Sanders would be more left, ideally. As would a few others (Warren, Castro, Booker)
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Naturegirl1999

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #33443 on: November 28, 2019, 01:29:25 pm »

I found out that the politely compass website placed the 2020 candidates on it
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The Ensorceler

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #33444 on: November 28, 2019, 02:05:13 pm »

So, um, here's what I was talking about w/r/t intersectionality. The number of people who are in a majority along every single axis of their being are extremely few to actually nonexistent. Almost everyone is some manner of minority. What I proposed was that if you vote *as a member of a majority*, your politics will tend towards "do unto other" type stuff. When your ideas are good, things are fine, when your ideas are bad things are horrid. When you vote *as a minority*, you are describing mot what you would do with power, but *what you wish those with power will do to you*. Generally, this style of voting is far, far better for society.

People are rarely 100% one or the other in their thinking. Acknowledging this is the basis of intersectionality. It doesn't build a hierarchy, it doesn't splinter into microtribes, it *unites everyone* behind the idea that if you listen to the quiet voices over the loud ones, you can build a more just society. This isn't tyranny of the minority, it's respectfully taking criticism from experts. It doesn't put all power in the hands of the uber-minority who meets all criteria, it simply takes their input everywhere it's valid. And this doesn't necessitate silencing majority views (which *would* be tyranny of a minority), just prevents them from pretending to be the only view that matters when frequently, they have the least reason to be.

As an example, I'm trans. I'm also white. My being trans *does not* let me dictate terms on racial matters. My being white *does not* make my opinion as a trans person less valuable. I am simultaneously a majority (ish) and a rather small minority. I am not monolithically either, but I trust my own opinions on matters of being trans more than my opinions on racial strife. I read on both topics, of course, but only one directly impacts me constantly. I don't ignore my own opinion or pretend not to have an opinion about racism, but generally that opinion is most useful if I need to talk to another white person. The more relevant experience in a field someone has, the more you yield the stage. I wouldn't argue physics with a physicist outside of a friendly discussion, so why should I try to talk over a less professional expert on their own experiences?

(And yes, even men or w/e have valid special interests to be met inside their supposedly powerful lanes. Ignoring that and proclaiming them Priviledged Oppressors who never get a say is not understanding the point. Everyone knows what its like to lack power sometimes. Hell, men oppress men all the time. It's *absolutely* going to take the input of men to break down toxic masculinity.)
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Loud Whispers

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #33445 on: November 28, 2019, 02:11:24 pm »

Unites everyone by telling everyone to shut up and obey idpol. The adversarial nature and political advantage lent to claims of expertise in experience coupled with amplified voice will always create an antagonistic relationship between individual groups, those who claim to speak for them, and those whom they must interact with - whether it be majoritarian groups or other minority groups. This system sucks eggs when it comes to unifying anyone, because unifying anyone is not its purpose

The Ensorceler

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #33446 on: November 28, 2019, 02:22:25 pm »

Did you read the same fucker I wrote? I know people are funky and it's difficult to hit the ideal, but like... voting how you want to be treated is way, way more conscientious than voting for how you want to treat others. I don't know what you think the 'system' there is.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #33447 on: November 28, 2019, 02:32:49 pm »

I read what you wrote and just disagree with the notions that it doesn't cause splintering, doesn't cause tribalism or hierarchies. Voting how you want others to be treated is not possible to be avoided, society is an attempt to create a uniform standard for everyone to follow, speak your mind or else suffer to be told how to live. There are unavoidable fracture points where you must choose, what rights triumph over what rights. How we weight those values is based off of our belief systems, and everyone in most countries have different belief systems from their neighbours

Intersectionalism in practice has not been this idealistic unifying force, in implementation it fractures all attempts to form a mass mobilization of people to effect actual change; because it focuses on how we are different in the most marginal and minimal ways instead of where we are different in the most and maximum of ways - so we're not talking about how to stop everyone from getting screwed by the oligarchal class, we're arguing about how every division and gradation of the 99.99% is the enemy of itself. Occupy Wallstreet splintered into a myriad of smaller groups, each too small to do anything of real import. BLM splintered into a myriad of smaller groups, each too small to do anything of real import. The more you break down what unifies and focus instead on what divides, the more you are... Divided and conquered

Doomblade187

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #33448 on: November 28, 2019, 03:23:07 pm »

Ipsil, what do people want Bernie to do once elected that's so bad/controversial?
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One mustn't stare into the pathos, lest one become Pathos.

Doomblade187

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #33449 on: November 28, 2019, 03:30:53 pm »

Which is--- RULE OF LAW.


This is contrary to the "Stuff the jury box!" approach, which is what I was deriding.

To wit:

I fundamentally reject the idea that there is any division between "government" and economics, or social politics and economics for that matter.

But if you're asking me if I'd pack the courts and ratfuck Republican shotcallers, you bet your ass I would. People's lives are too important to stand on nebulous procedures that god knows the right doesn't even pretend to follow either.

The centrists can have their motions well taken and their time allotted in hell.
MSH is a reknowned shitposter here. Don't always take him at face value. Besides, we are undergoing horrific court packing with unqualified judges right now - I myself would propose we remove the extreme appointments come Democratic presidency.
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In any case it would be a battle of critical thinking and I refuse to fight an unarmed individual.
One mustn't stare into the pathos, lest one become Pathos.
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