Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Karnewarrior]

Look, I don't think it's that big an issue, especially if they don't have names on them.

We as a species have a long and ugly history of being shitty to one another. Walking away from a polling place with a slip of paper that either says "Vote: SomeDude McPresidentMan" or a hash that you look up online to verify "Somedude McPresidentMan" would trigger multiple entries on this page regardless of if your individual name is present on that slip of paper.

Well, then don't walk out with the slip of paper. Have a box in the voting booth to put the certificates in - heck, make it mandatory to do so and then if there's any significant discrepancy in the number of votes-by-slip and votes-by-machine then you know that there's something going wrong. Or if you're worried about that, just have it shred them, or even incinerate them.

In the end though, no voting method is fool-proof. Best bet is probably something mixed such that both methods can compensate for the weaknesses of the other.

[nenjin]

Mmmmmm. Things are gettin' a spicy!

I haven't heard the term "Rudy Ghouliani" before but it totally fits.

[thompson]

Look, I don't think it's that big an issue, especially if they don't have names on them.

We as a species have a long and ugly history of being shitty to one another. Walking away from a polling place with a slip of paper that either says "Vote: SomeDude McPresidentMan" or a hash that you look up online to verify "Somedude McPresidentMan" would trigger multiple entries on this page regardless of if your individual name is present on that slip of paper.

Well, then don't walk out with the slip of paper. Have a box in the voting booth to put the certificates in - heck, make it mandatory to do so and then if there's any significant discrepancy in the number of votes-by-slip and votes-by-machine then you know that there's something going wrong. Or if you're worried about that, just have it shred them, or even incinerate them.

In the end though, no voting method is fool-proof. Best bet is probably something mixed such that both methods can compensate for the weaknesses of the other.

I was going to suggest paper ballots that you feed into a scanner, but this is a much better idea. You'd get an almost instant vote count, but the voter receipts could be the legally binding vote that is confirmed during counting over a few weeks. Digitally printed votes could be easier to forge. Perhaps the receipt could print a hash code on it that corresponds to the digital entry, but is non-trivial to generate from the digital version making forgery difficult?

[Trekkin]

Perhaps the receipt could print a hash code on it that corresponds to the digital entry, but is non-trivial to generate from the digital version making forgery difficult?

People usually respond negatively to any suggestion of the use of cryptography in voting for security reasons, but I think actually exposing that system to the public in that way, actually showing them hash codes, would create a huge backlash.

As a general rule, if you expose the American public to literally any number without a dollar sign in front of it, they will immediately assume the following:

1. It is or can be numerologically manipulated to be the Mark of the Beast.
2. It will be used to track them and herald a new age of government surveillance.
3. It marks the inception of Sharia law, otherwise why would they be (partly) in Arabic numerals? If English numbers were good enough for Jesus they should be good enough for us.
4. It is redeemable for fabulous prizes somewhere on the dark web.
5. It's how the reptilian Freemasons are guiding the chemtrails.
6. It proves strawman theory is correct so they don't need to pay taxes.
7. It is the revenge of math teachers on their lazy students.

So, you know, maybe we should find a way to prevent vote miscounts that doesn't involve Americans interacting with numbers.

[smjjames]

Perhaps the receipt could print a hash code on it that corresponds to the digital entry, but is non-trivial to generate from the digital version making forgery difficult?

People usually respond negatively to any suggestion of the use of cryptography in voting for security reasons, but I think actually exposing that system to the public in that way, actually showing them hash codes, would create a huge backlash.

As a general rule, if you expose the American public to literally any number without a dollar sign in front of it, they will immediately assume the following:

1. It is or can be numerologically manipulated to be the Mark of the Beast.
2. It will be used to track them and herald a new age of government surveillance.
3. It marks the inception of Sharia law, otherwise why would they be (partly) in Arabic numerals? If English numbers were good enough for Jesus they should be good enough for us.
4. It is redeemable for fabulous prizes somewhere on the dark web.
5. It's how the reptilian Freemasons are guiding the chemtrails.
6. It proves strawman theory is correct so they don't need to pay taxes.
7. It is the revenge of math teachers on their lazy students.

So, you know, maybe we should find a way to prevent vote miscounts that doesn't involve Americans interacting with numbers.

While I get that is tongue-in-cheek, unless you plan on outsourcing vote counts to Canada or Mexico or maybe even the UN, it's going to involve Americans interacting with numbers at all points.

One could do it by machine or computer, but even those aren't infallible, and you'd still want to have some non-digital record even then.

Mmmmmm. Things are gettin' a spicy!

I haven't heard the term "Rudy Ghouliani" before but it totally fits.

Time to throw Giuliani under the bus?

[Naturegirl1999]

I am an American and do not fear numbers. I understand that is a joke, just remember that there are a few of us who don’t buy into that stuff

[thompson]

Perhaps the receipt could print a hash code on it that corresponds to the digital entry, but is non-trivial to generate from the digital version making forgery difficult?

People usually respond negatively to any suggestion of the use of cryptography in voting for security reasons, but I think actually exposing that system to the public in that way, actually showing them hash codes, would create a huge backlash.

As a general rule, if you expose the American public to literally any number without a dollar sign in front of it, they will immediately assume the following:

1. It is or can be numerologically manipulated to be the Mark of the Beast.
2. It will be used to track them and herald a new age of government surveillance.
3. It marks the inception of Sharia law, otherwise why would they be (partly) in Arabic numerals? If English numbers were good enough for Jesus they should be good enough for us.
4. It is redeemable for fabulous prizes somewhere on the dark web.
5. It's how the reptilian Freemasons are guiding the chemtrails.
6. It proves strawman theory is correct so they don't need to pay taxes.
7. It is the revenge of math teachers on their lazy students.

So, you know, maybe we should find a way to prevent vote miscounts that doesn't involve Americans interacting with numbers.

This does remind me of the Pew scientific literacy study, where an alarming proportion of people don't know the Earth revolves around the Sun. Or other fairly basic scientific facts. Even doctorate holders were only getting 80% of the questions right. I'd be curious to see how other countries fare. The US gets a bad rap in this regard, but I suspect the issue is more widespread.

[Naturegirl1999]

Perhaps the receipt could print a hash code on it that corresponds to the digital entry, but is non-trivial to generate from the digital version making forgery difficult?

People usually respond negatively to any suggestion of the use of cryptography in voting for security reasons, but I think actually exposing that system to the public in that way, actually showing them hash codes, would create a huge backlash.

As a general rule, if you expose the American public to literally any number without a dollar sign in front of it, they will immediately assume the following:

1. It is or can be numerologically manipulated to be the Mark of the Beast.
2. It will be used to track them and herald a new age of government surveillance.
3. It marks the inception of Sharia law, otherwise why would they be (partly) in Arabic numerals? If English numbers were good enough for Jesus they should be good enough for us.
4. It is redeemable for fabulous prizes somewhere on the dark web.
5. It's how the reptilian Freemasons are guiding the chemtrails.
6. It proves strawman theory is correct so they don't need to pay taxes.
7. It is the revenge of math teachers on their lazy students.

So, you know, maybe we should find a way to prevent vote miscounts that doesn't involve Americans interacting with numbers.

This does remind me of the Pew scientific literacy study, where an alarming proportion of people don't know the Earth revolves around the Sun. Or other fairly basic scientific facts. Even doctorate holders were only getting 80% of the questions right. I'd be curious to see how other countries fare. The US gets a bad rap in this regard, but I suspect the issue is more widespread.

I think a lot of the problem might be the prevalence of religious schools here. I was lucky to go to an actual school. Yes, there are religious schools. I thought schools were supposed to be for learning. Churches already do the job of deceiving people. They don’t need to make “schools” to do the same. It is unfortunate that many Americans seem to not value knowledge.

[Trekkin]

(snip for quote instability)
This does remind me of the Pew scientific literacy study, where an alarming proportion of people don't know the Earth revolves around the Sun. Or other fairly basic scientific facts. Even doctorate holders were only getting 80% of the questions right. I'd be curious to see how other countries fare. The US gets a bad rap in this regard, but I suspect the issue is more widespread.

I didn't mean to imply that Americans are necessarily dumber as a public than other countries' populations; the uniquely American parts of those conspiracy theories are the specific things that resonate with the loudest and most persuasive American cranks. We're not stupid, we just have a media ecosystem that loves to conjure certain spectres over others, and big long mysterious numbers are a rich source of fodder for those -- for instance, by scanning through them looking for correlations between people and parts of their hashes, however spurious, that can then fuel theories about whose votes count more or less or some FEMA-related death camp theory.

Yes, that would be utterly inane, and if you sat people down and explained how the process worked, the vast majority would understand it. Unfortunately, that explanation would compete in the media ecosystem with simpler, more rage-inducing explanations and promptly lose.

[Naturegirl1999]

So the media needs to somehow be incentivized to allow facts to overtake nonsense. Unfortunately, facts don’t sell as well as nonsense

[bloop_bleep]

...

I... find that dubious, in particular about doctorates. Could you link to a source? My guess is that Pew did conduct such a study, but it was misrepresented in some sensationalist news article or somesuch.

[Eschar]

Perhaps the receipt could print a hash code on it that corresponds to the digital entry, but is non-trivial to generate from the digital version making forgery difficult?

People usually respond negatively to any suggestion of the use of cryptography in voting for security reasons, but I think actually exposing that system to the public in that way, actually showing them hash codes, would create a huge backlash.

As a general rule, if you expose the American public to literally any number without a dollar sign in front of it, they will immediately assume the following:

1. It is or can be numerologically manipulated to be the Mark of the Beast.
2. It will be used to track them and herald a new age of government surveillance.
3. It marks the inception of Sharia law, otherwise why would they be (partly) in Arabic numerals? If English numbers were good enough for Jesus they should be good enough for us.
4. It is redeemable for fabulous prizes somewhere on the dark web.
5. It's how the reptilian Freemasons are guiding the chemtrails.
6. It proves strawman theory is correct so they don't need to pay taxes.
7. It is the revenge of math teachers on their lazy students.

So, you know, maybe we should find a way to prevent vote miscounts that doesn't involve Americans interacting with numbers.

This does remind me of the Pew scientific literacy study, where an alarming proportion of people don't know the Earth revolves around the Sun. Or other fairly basic scientific facts. Even doctorate holders were only getting 80% of the questions right. I'd be curious to see how other countries fare. The US gets a bad rap in this regard, but I suspect the issue is more widespread.

I think a lot of the problem might be the prevalence of religious schools here. I was lucky to go to an actual school. Yes, there are religious schools. I thought schools were supposed to be for learning. Churches already do the job of deceiving people. They don’t need to make “schools” to do the same. It is unfortunate that many Americans seem to not value knowledge.

I go to a religious school and so I'm curious about your school. Can you give me a general picture of some of the major differences - obviously, less religion, but what are some other effects?

I'm not defensive of them, just to make that clear. 
(I would have been a few years ago, probably.)

[Trolldefender99]

Perhaps the receipt could print a hash code on it that corresponds to the digital entry, but is non-trivial to generate from the digital version making forgery difficult?

People usually respond negatively to any suggestion of the use of cryptography in voting for security reasons, but I think actually exposing that system to the public in that way, actually showing them hash codes, would create a huge backlash.

As a general rule, if you expose the American public to literally any number without a dollar sign in front of it, they will immediately assume the following:

1. It is or can be numerologically manipulated to be the Mark of the Beast.
2. It will be used to track them and herald a new age of government surveillance.
3. It marks the inception of Sharia law, otherwise why would they be (partly) in Arabic numerals? If English numbers were good enough for Jesus they should be good enough for us.
4. It is redeemable for fabulous prizes somewhere on the dark web.
5. It's how the reptilian Freemasons are guiding the chemtrails.
6. It proves strawman theory is correct so they don't need to pay taxes.
7. It is the revenge of math teachers on their lazy students.

So, you know, maybe we should find a way to prevent vote miscounts that doesn't involve Americans interacting with numbers.

This does remind me of the Pew scientific literacy study, where an alarming proportion of people don't know the Earth revolves around the Sun. Or other fairly basic scientific facts. Even doctorate holders were only getting 80% of the questions right. I'd be curious to see how other countries fare. The US gets a bad rap in this regard, but I suspect the issue is more widespread.

I think a lot of the problem might be the prevalence of religious schools here. I was lucky to go to an actual school. Yes, there are religious schools. I thought schools were supposed to be for learning. Churches already do the job of deceiving people. They don’t need to make “schools” to do the same. It is unfortunate that many Americans seem to not value knowledge.

I go to a religious school and so I'm curious about your school. Can you give me a general picture of some of the major differences - obviously, less religion, but what are some other effects?

I'm not defensive of them, just to make that clear. 
(I would have been a few years ago, probably.)

I haven't gone, but part of my family migrated from iran (I have israel+palestine direct family members, but some of my family originated from iran and elsewhere in middle east. kinda spread out) and they send their kids to mosques to learn. Its like a christian religious school, but for Allah. From what they told me its no different than any other religious school except its for their own religion. (edit: And they still learn things like any other school. They learn math, science, history and writing in both arabic and english. In some ways its far better than public schools from what they told me)

I hope Naturegirl isn't against that. I don't think racist bigots don't belong on this forum. That is something a trump supporter would be against, since they hate islam

[smjjames]

Technically Allah and God are exactly the same thing, just different names for the same thing. But that tangent would go into the religion thread.

Anyways, you're of MiddleEastern descent? cool, didn't know. As for the schools, it depends on the school really, but there are mosque 'schools' that do nothing but recite the Koran/Quran. They're in the minority for sure, but they do exist. No idea how much that kind of thing is allowed in Iran or Palestine though.

Eehhhh... lets dump the whole tangent into religion thread, dunno, unless you want to continue on education policy stuff.

Eric Trump appears to have graduated from 'Lock them up' to 'Beat the hell out of all of them'. Obviously he means beat them at the polls, but without the context it sounds like a call to violence.

[Trolldefender99]

Technically Allah and God are exactly the same thing, just different names for the same thing. But that tangent would go into the religion thread.

Anyways, you're of MiddleEastern descent? cool, didn't know. As for the schools, it depends on the school really, but there are mosque 'schools' that do nothing but recite the Koran/Quran. They're in the minority for sure, but they do exist.

Eehhhh... lets dump the whole tangent into religion thread, dunno, unless you want to continue on education policy stuff.

I'm half jewish and half palestinian. My mother was born in israel and my father is from Palestine. My mother back in her time tried to advocate a lot for better treatment of muslims in israel, that is how she met my dad way back when. Though I've lived in america my whole life.

But yeah, religion AND politics tend to get too heated to begin with. One or the other is bad enough on the internet, both combined can get people really riled up. So I'll excuse myself from that religious discussion.