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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4435237 times)

SalmonGod

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32730 on: October 09, 2019, 07:14:05 am »

While I agree with most of your general premise, I find issue with you noting that the collective agreement structure of power is "propped up on" society. Rather, I'd say that it is its very definition. The definition of a state is collective agreement. There's no way around that. The only way you're ever going to have a system that cannot be subverted in such a way is to just not have a system at all, and the only way you're not going to have a system at all is to consign humanity to a state of collective lack-of-power.

Then again, you're an ardent anarchist, and I'm an ardent anti-anarchist, so I have a feeling that we're not going to come to terms on this.

The only point where I said propped up on was at the very end, and what I meant by that was that it might be revealed how little our current system is truly based on collective agreement.  It's heavily influenced by economic power, which is based on a totally imaginary number game that's heavily subject to authoritarian power dynamics.  And the myriad problems with our electoral and legislative processes as well, especially in their interaction with our economic system.

Trump was not elected according to collective agreement.  He and his entire party have not been behaving according to the processes supposedly established by collective agreement.  The effects he's had on our government and the world have not been by collective agreement.  They respect collective agreement only when it strategically suits them, and otherwise they just say no.  They are wielding power by illusion.

To address this as it needs to be addressed can't be done without dispelling the illusion.  Either his/their power to just say no and do as they please is real or it's a farce that has simply been tolerated all this time for no good reason.  To enforce against him is to reveal this power to have been a farce all along.  That his election and the things that have happened on his term needn't have happened.  This provokes a potential crisis of belief, because it's carried on so long.  So much of our lives is based on things that have been enacted through this farce, and the truth is republicans are not the only ones who are guilty of it.  When the masses witness the piercing of the illusion for a single act, why would they be satisfied with stopping there?

I think maaaybe this is something that's been running through the minds of the likes of Pelosi for a while now.
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
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thompson

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32731 on: October 09, 2019, 07:54:58 am »

You're probably stretching the illusion metaphor a little far there. There is indeed a good deal of collective agreement behind Trump, and those second amendment nutters agreeing with him have guns. I'd argue the problem is that the US has never really had a political culture that respects the rule of law. Even the Supreme Court views doesn't really respect the law (or, rather, "respects" it selectively). The existence of partisan justices is evidence of this.

I'm not sure what practical measures can be taken to redress this. I'm putting my money on "more of the same shit", personally.
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Iduno

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32732 on: October 09, 2019, 08:20:41 am »

Just saw a poll from the Washington Post I'm too lazy to link that puts support for [impeachment and removal from office[/i] at around 18% amongst self-identifying Republicans. That's pretty high, considering. I wonder how much longer the Republicans will try and maintain a united front on this?

Mid-term elections?


Everyone's been repeating stuff about the GOP putting themselves in binds for the last several years, but they're still in power, still blatantly disregarding the law, even running heinous concentration camps right inside our own borders now.  It's basically Guantanamo 2.0 and nothing's being done about it.  Everyone keeps just taking it as a matter of faith that the next bad thing they do will cross some line and consequences will magically erupt from the rule of law aether.  But it never happens.  As we saw with Standing Rock, it's not even just the president.  State leaders will use their domestic police forces to conduct a military invasion, and a democrat president will play "wait and see".

The established Democrats would rather watch the world burn than change anything. Remember when President Obama took down the concentration camps? No? Because it didn't happen. Homeland Security and the concentration camps were created for the Patriot Act from 2001, and people only just started caring. The Democrats are part of the problem, not a solution.


I was going to post a very lengthy investigation on the topic of the illusionary nature of power and how, fundamentally, power can be disregarded only if you're willing to reduce the standard of living down to the isolated abilities of individuals (i.e. sustenance farming), but I accidentally refreshed and lost it all.

Close enough?
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SalmonGod

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32733 on: October 09, 2019, 09:09:53 am »

I'd argue the problem is that the US has never really had a political culture that respects the rule of law. Even the Supreme Court views doesn't really respect the law (or, rather, "respects" it selectively). The existence of partisan justices is evidence of this.

This is exactly my point.  Some people can just disregard rule of law and others can't.  The reason for this is this cognitive dissonance between what we tell ourselves the rule of law means (collective agreement found via legitimizing processes regarding acceptable behavior and what's supposed to happen when that agreement is violated), and what we actually feel when directly confronted by the true nature of power. 

When people who have power disregard rule of law, we expect there to be consequences.  Our collective agreement is that everyone should be subject to it.  But when this intersects with authoritarian mentality, there is crisis.  Because authoritarians believe in pecking order before they believe in rule of law.  Normally it can be taken for granted that someone with authority, higher on the pecking order, will naturally come along and do the job of enforcement against someone lower than them.  But things get weird at the higher tiers of power, where things are less defined.  The president is characterized as top authority.  An authoritarian's mind cannot process the idea of someone at the top being held accountable, because enforcement normally flows down the totem pole.  And to some extent, most people struggle with this.  The president is a criminal, so they should face consequences as a criminal.  But in this situation, it can't just be taken for granted that someone of a higher authority will naturally step forward to do to the work.

And when the whole world sees power flaunted in such a fashion and nothing happens in response, those with deeply authoritarian mentalities know exactly who to fall in line with.  The world makes a little more sense to them, and they get comfort from that.

And what that means is in essence, you have a someone who has power because they act like they have power and nothing more.  It's a hypnosis.

For anything to happen, either someone has to boldly step out of their felt place in the pecking order without being obstructed, or a bunch of people who also play the game invite being taken to task on their own shit in the process of enforcing some honesty for just a moment.  Because for example, if Democrats push enforcement because of Trump's crimes, then observers will wonder why this is happening without Democrats also having enforcement pushed on them for their own crimes.  Trump's a pedophile?  Weren't the Clintons also Epstein customers?  Trump's election wasn't legitimate?  What about the Democrat primary?  Corrupted by corporate money?  Pff, Obama's first cabinet was directly picked by Citibank (thanks Wikileaks).

Democrats base their existence on appealing to the less authoritarian among us.  The liberals (in the classic sense of the word) who want to believe in the legitimacy of the system.  But they've made the system a glass house by only appealing to the perception of legitimacy, which they must be careful to maintain.  Republicans appeal to authoritarians.  They don't need that glass house for things to be run the way they want, and can freely dare Democrats to throw stones.  IMO, this has been the defining feature of USA politics for at least the last 15 years.

There is indeed a good deal of collective agreement behind Trump, and those second amendment nutters agreeing with him have guns.

And yeah, there's collective agreement behind Trump, but it's mainly of two natures, which are NOT the collective agreement behind rule of law I've been referring to:

1.  Collective agreement to support the man himself, because of the way he wields power.  The love for that circular logic.  They love him because wields power because they love him because he wields power.
2.  Collective agreement regarding his reinforcement of the authoritarian and bigoted elements of society.  Which is only further manifestation of the projection of power via charade.  The establishment of everyone in a pecking order based on nothing more than enough people believing that there's a pecking order.  The majority of those living within that pecking order reinforcing its existence by behaving accordingly, because they fear consequences from someone higher on the pecking order, who in turn fears consequences from someone "above" them.  When in reality, if everyone who didn't like it just stopped, it wouldn't exist.  Most atrocities throughout history are a product of people "following orders" according to this dynamic.

The established Democrats would rather watch the world burn than change anything. Remember when President Obama took down the concentration camps? No? Because it didn't happen. Homeland Security and the concentration camps were created for the Patriot Act from 2001, and people only just started caring. The Democrats are part of the problem, not a solution.

If you've followed my history around here, you'll know I agree.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2019, 09:28:21 am by SalmonGod »
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

Iduno

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32734 on: October 09, 2019, 01:49:06 pm »

The FBI got caught lying and cheating (including violating the 4th amendment), surprising no one. Also, nothing will be done about it yet again, also surprising no one.
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Naturegirl1999

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32735 on: October 09, 2019, 02:12:10 pm »

Question: How can we, the citizenry, change this? I'm not sure what we can do about this, if there is something we can do, I want to know what it is
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Trolldefender99

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32736 on: October 09, 2019, 02:20:14 pm »

Seems blizzard is censoring pro-hong kong politics. They've sided with china. EPIC games said they allow it, but still banned a twitch streamer that is pro-hong kong so seems they said one thing and did another. They even said tencent has no control over them, but they still went ahead and banned but used the excuse of something along the lines of "person was using hacks". But seems like a BS excuse to me. Now I'm laughing (yeah its actually no laughing matter) at everyone who supports(ed) the epic store because they are also now supporting anti hong kong propaganda with all these companies wanting china's money. They got egg in their face, or maybe they don't care and will still think epic is good cause steam bad. I'd stop using steam btw if china took control of it, I would drop it like a hammer on a fly.

In return, I got rid of all my blizzard games. Uninstalled them all and even deleted my 10+ year WoW account

Tencent has a lot of shares in reddit too btw, but that be a lot harder site to censor. Also smartphones and many of our appliances (consoles, computers, fridges/freezers etc) are made in china, it be a good thing to start throwing it all away right now and making sure nothing we have is made in china. I know some of us may not be able to afford it, but we need to act right now and start telling everyone to throw all their chinese made appliances and items into the dump even if cant afford to replace, we can't support anything from china and their slave labor.

(edit: Since it makes tencent money and therefor that means china gets money through tencents taxes they pay and whatever else they pay china, I deleted my 3 year old reddit account. There goes 14k worth of reddit karma that I suppose means nothing really. I don't want to support anything by tencent and china.

I gotta look and see if facebook has any ties to china, I like facebook to keep in touch with family but as far as I know they haven't gotten taken over by tencent or china yet.

(edit 2: I wonder if blizzard will reverse their stance. They haven't said anything at all yet.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2019, 02:42:24 pm by Trolldefender99 »
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Doomblade187

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32737 on: October 09, 2019, 02:20:56 pm »

Question: How can we, the citizenry, change this? I'm not sure what we can do about this, if there is something we can do, I want to know what it is
Re-elect senator Wyden, sounds like.
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thompson

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32738 on: October 09, 2019, 02:46:36 pm »

Question: How can we, the citizenry, change this? I'm not sure what we can do about this, if there is something we can do, I want to know what it is

Emigrate?

Edit: In all seriousness, you could become more politically engaged, participate in the primaries and preselection of candidates and motivate others you know to do the same.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2019, 02:55:46 pm by thompson »
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Mephisto

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32739 on: October 09, 2019, 02:54:49 pm »

Question: How can we, the citizenry, change this? I'm not sure what we can do about this, if there is something we can do, I want to know what it is

Emigrate?

This country was built upon the idea that it's not perfect but can be improved. This idea I've seen people espousing telling people to leave if they don't like something can die in a fire.
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thompson

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32740 on: October 09, 2019, 02:58:38 pm »

Question: How can we, the citizenry, change this? I'm not sure what we can do about this, if there is something we can do, I want to know what it is

Emigrate?

This country was built upon the idea that it's not perfect but can be improved. This idea I've seen people espousing telling people to leave if they don't like something can die in a fire.

Ninja'd me before I finished my edit.
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Mephisto

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32741 on: October 09, 2019, 03:01:44 pm »

Damn. Hit up the thread at the exact right time.

I've seen that argument several times so I assumed it was sincere.
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ggamer

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32742 on: October 09, 2019, 03:16:20 pm »

Complete failure of US foreign policy in Syria today. Allowing the entirety of northern syria to fall to hostile actors & essentially letting the whole world know the us is run by greedy dipshits who couldn't keep a lie straight for more than 5 years.

The Kurds will fold under Turkish pressure, and they'll either start an insurgency or return to the Syrian governments fold - likely opening them up to government persecution without the means to defend themselves - like they've shown they're willing to do in the past. Any hope of having a natural ideological rival to wahabi/salafist jihadism associated with the US in the region is out the window, and with how things are going in Israel the only ally we'll have left is Saudi Arabia, the cause of the problem in the first place!

It's hard to put into words how greviously dissapointed I am. I'm truly embarrassed to be a citizen of this country, for the fifteen trillionth time.

Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32743 on: October 09, 2019, 04:29:53 pm »

What's up with Israel I've been focused on everything else but that.

What, are we deliberately alienating them now too? Specifically in a targeted fashion, I mean.
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32744 on: October 09, 2019, 06:17:03 pm »

I haven't heard anything new on Israel, they're still figuring out their government atm I think. Ggamer was probably referring to their slide towards apartheid, which is incredibly ironic considering the reason Israel was created in the first place.

The fact that Trump did the partial pullout without consulting allies and it's probably going to allow Iran to advance in Syria certainly doesn't help things.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2019, 06:20:06 pm by smjjames »
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