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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4469902 times)

Naturegirl1999

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32385 on: September 24, 2019, 07:21:19 am »

Saudimasochism needs to be stopped
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Reelya

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32386 on: September 24, 2019, 07:25:53 am »

You could, in fact, argue that the price crash of housing during the downturn was a feature not a bug.  I'd say the bug in the system is that housing is not a directly productive form of investment, so having the availability of capital tied up in the housing market is demonstrably hazardous.

This analysis is common, but it turns out to be a little simplified. If I give you $1 million for a house, the "$1 million" isn't "tied up" in the house, you now have that $1 million and you are going to want to invest it in something else. Sure, you could buy a house with that $1 million too, but then the person who sold you that house now has $1 million to invest elsewhere. (note: the only material resource-consuming thing that all this house-price boosting does spur is more construction work, which is itself productive work).

"the availability of capital tied up in the housing market" is thus not a very realistic phrase, because it assumes the money is literally stuck in the house, rather than turned into liquid assets owned by someone else. If houses rise in value, sure there's more capital value, but that doesn't actually mean there's any less money anywhere else. In fact, you can borrow against the nominal value of your house, so if you paid $500,000 and the house is now nominally* worth $1,000,000, you didn't "tie up" an extra $500,000 in your house, it's just nominally worth that much extra. You can borrow against that as collateral, which means that high housing prices actually allow more loans to be made and more liquid capital to be generated in the system, not less. The risk is actually the opposite to what was implied: rising housing prices risk over-heating other investment areas due to excessive mortgage-backed borrowing and investment, rather than the idea that housing investment "starves" other areas of available investment funds.

EDIT: * Note that "nominal" value is most of the value in the housing market. It didn't actually come from anywhere. The housing price is determined by supply vs demand of the number of people currently selling houses vs the number of people buying houses, and only a small percentage of houses are available on the market at any time. But this small fraction of the available housing stock determines the "value" of all houses, including the vast majority which aren't for sale. If slightly more people start trying to sell their houses at the same time then the "capital" value of all houses falls. That value came from nowhere, went nowhere, represents pretty much nothing of any real substance.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2019, 08:22:10 am by Reelya »
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McTraveller

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32387 on: September 24, 2019, 07:58:41 am »

Ah, yes, I didn't mean "tied up" in that sense. Maybe I should have used "dependent on" or "intertwined with".  What I mean is that mortgages were used as the source or new money due to fractional reserve.   So the money involved in the purchase of the house wasn't "out of circulation" because of a home purchase: it is that the creation of that money in the first place (through fractional reserve*) is "tied up" with the home purchase.

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sluissa

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32388 on: September 24, 2019, 01:41:03 pm »

Both sides are trying to do that, though. All it takes is enough propaganda to make the other side seem like the more extreme option.

Independents are the only ones that really make sense in that argument, since independent covers a LOT of spectrum and usually includes the options that are so extreme to the wings they don't fit within the two main parties.

I like a lot of 538's stuff, but that particular article is pretty flawed. (And to note, not actually written by 538 regular staff.) To start with those ideology index surveys are generally horribly written, open to interpretation in the answers and generally completely ignore that someone might feel very strongly about a particular topic and not care all that much about another. They do often try to account for that, but it's not nuanced at all and never accounts for the fact that some people might, for example, vote for a pro-life democrat every time, but never for a pro-choice candidate no matter the party. It's those sorts of issues that really highlight the failings of those indexes and trying to use them as predictions for voting patterns. It's one thing to use it as a barometer, but another to try to slice it apart and draw specific conclusions from it.

Not appealing to the center only works if you assume the center is going to vote anyway. There's always the option they either don't vote, or vote independent. They might be set in their ways already about which party they'd be willing to support, if they supported any, but that support is not a guarantee. That example voter that is a pro-life democrat might not vote republican if there were no pro-life democrats available. But they might just not vote at all.

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PTTG??

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32389 on: September 24, 2019, 02:22:59 pm »

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Naturegirl1999

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32390 on: September 24, 2019, 02:27:44 pm »

Finally
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32391 on: September 24, 2019, 03:08:27 pm »

Ok now first of all, I hope he gets impeached. Trump sucks and his presidency sucks and everything he touches gets shittier.
 
Second, It is remarkably shitty and inappropriate and despicable to use humanitarian aid funds (It was humanitarian aid through the military, was it not?) as a tool to force pressure on a struggling nation outside of like, human rights violations going on or something. Extreme stuff.
 
Third...... it's not illegal, is it? From what I can tell Biden/his kid did not actually do anything illegal in Ukraine. Bringing pressure to bear on them if he thinks there was something shady going on is within the range of what a President can do. This might possibly be literally the worst way to do that, and it looks like bullshit reasons for doing so, but I don't think it's illegal. Even if he lied about it or his reasons for doing so, it wasn't illegal, even if it was related to a potential presidential adversary for him. Shitty, yes, Illegal, no.
 
Is this maybe the wrong specific issue to do this over? Are we about to see another impeachment hooplah that ends in "Trump didn't technically do anything illegal" and makes him stronger than he was before, like the Mueller Report? It's close enough to election time that a failed attempt could be catastrophic.

I would genuinely love to hear people's positions on how this could work out positively for getting rid of him, because I am in favor of that.
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Doomblade187

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32392 on: September 24, 2019, 03:13:26 pm »

I really don't know, but I think the rub is him using the military aid funds (they were defense money, iirc), to target a political opponent. Is it illegal?

Eh. But there are plenty of other things to impeach him over, tbh.
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32393 on: September 24, 2019, 03:17:11 pm »

Pretty sure it was military aid? I'm not sure specifically what type of aid it was.

In similar news, the transcript is apparently going to be released tomorrow (I wouldn't put it past them to edit it though......) and the whistleblower wants to talk to the Senate and House intel committees, as soon as sometime this week. I suppose that there could be a chance of the whistleblowers identity being revealed because cameras are going to be swarming, but I'm pretty sure that they have procedures in place to shield that kind of thing.
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32394 on: September 24, 2019, 03:19:05 pm »

Biden isn't even technically a political opponent yet, at least in a legal sense. My admittedly limited understanding is that many of those restrictions only come into play during elections time between electoral opponents.

But yes, I'm hoping that it's like, a moral justification for starting proceedings now instead of the focus of her case against him. Watching with great interest how this unfolds.

I don't think they could base a case against the President on a fully anonymous tip. The identity would have to come out eventually, or it would never carry the same weight during proceedings.
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nenjin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32395 on: September 24, 2019, 03:19:50 pm »

Does this mean I don't get to enjoy the irony during election season where Trump accuses his opponent of financially benefiting from business dealings in former Russian territories? Because I was really looking forward to that.
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32396 on: September 24, 2019, 03:24:16 pm »

Biden isn't even technically a political opponent yet, at least in a legal sense. My admittedly limited understanding is that many of those restrictions only come into play during elections time between electoral opponents.

But yes, I'm hoping that it's like, a moral justification for starting proceedings now instead of the focus of her case against him. Watching with great interest how this unfolds.

I don't think they could base a case against the President on a fully anonymous tip. The identity would have to come out eventually, or it would never carry the same weight during proceedings.

Well, Trump is evidently scared enough to start now. Also, I seriously doubt that the IG would have done urgent on a fully anonymous tip. There's also the fact that the person is in the intel community (supposedly a senior person) which makes the identity less likely to come out unless they volunteer to do so, which is what the approach to the Senate and House intel committees seems to indicate.
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32397 on: September 24, 2019, 03:29:34 pm »

That makes sense.

And don't get me wrong I'm not surprised that Trump is in full unrestrained shit-flinging attack mode a year before elections. He's insecure in all things. But.... nothing illegal. And illegality is how you impeach someone, even if it's thin.
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Naturegirl1999

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32398 on: September 24, 2019, 03:31:50 pm »

That makes sense.

And don't get me wrong I'm not surprised that Trump is in full unrestrained shit-flinging attack mode a year before elections. He's insecure in all things. But.... nothing illegal. And illegality is how you impeach someone, even if it's thin.
What about his attempts at obstructing justice? That was illegal, right?
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MrRoboto75

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #32399 on: September 24, 2019, 03:34:17 pm »

That was illegal, right?

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