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[bloop_bleep]

I mean, I guess he could nationalize those corporations if he really wanted to. Of course, that would be the one thing that would get him ousted with 100% certainty.

I don't really think so.

Guys, I think we may have an opportunity here...

[bloop_bleep]

When they say "sanctions on dealing with China" those aren't actually sanctions on China because Trump has no direct influence on China. Those are laws targeting Americans, to stop them doing business as they see fit, so they are in fact direct sanctions on American businesses for not doing things the government wishes, thus they are a type of policy 1920s/30s fascist governments would enact.

Double post, but you do realize that America has had high tariffs for the majority of its history, including and especially during the time that it rose to its greatest economic power?

I've been silently disagreeing with all of you when you say high tariffs are always bad, but I felt I needed to say something when you started declaring they were literally fascist.

[Naturegirl1999]

When they say "sanctions on dealing with China" those aren't actually sanctions on China because Trump has no direct influence on China. Those are laws targeting Americans, to stop them doing business as they see fit, so they are in fact direct sanctions on American businesses for not doing things the government wishes, thus they are a type of policy 1920s/30s fascist governments would enact.

Double post, but you do realize that America has had high tariffs for the majority of its history, including and especially during the time that it rose to its greatest economic power?

I've been silently disagreeing with all of you when you say high tariffs are always bad, but I felt I needed to say something when you started declaring they were literally fascist.

Tariffs aren’t fascist. I am unsure when people said tariffs were fascist, but alienating your country from others and consolidating power is fascist.

[WealthyRadish]

I think Reelya's argument here is that under right-wing authoritarian regimes the ruler generally permits the wealthy to retain their property and socially privileged position, but expects total political deference towards the nationalistic aims that fascism promotes. Descriptions of the economic aspects of fascism are often put in this light, as a sort of attempt to preserve the traditionally rooted justifications for capitalism and the elite while also rejecting the classical liberal arguments entirely. Here I don't think he was referring to tariffs, but the "command" to stop doing business with China generally, which would be contrary to the liberties of the corporate elite traditionally held sacred.

If asking whether tariffs are or can be fascist, I think it should be noted that this form of extreme crony capitalism doesn't need any ideological justification to be achieved (what little there is to be found from the incoherent mess of "fascism"). I think it's obvious that liberal democracies don't need any help with that. What makes Trump's actions appear fascist is that he also acts contrary to the classical ideals of liberalism, by embracing a more extreme flavor of nationalism and by his comments about the press and so on.

[Reelya]

That's right. Also, i did specifically say "sanctions" not "tariffs". These have very different, and specific, legal meanings. I never mentioned tariffs, so that's a non-sequitur.

Sanctions are legal restrictions where you go to jail for breaching them. And notably, when the sanctions are breached, it is Americans who go to jail, not the Chinese, which demonstrates that they are, in practice, restrictions on Americans, not restrictions on the Chinese.

[scriver]

Wouldn't you technically "go to jail" (metaphorically, as in at least be punished) for not paying tariffs too though

[Kagus]

Wouldn't you technically "go to jail" (metaphorically, as in at least be punished) for not paying tariffs too though

Go directly to jail. Do not pass GO. Do not collect $200.

[thompson]

Really, people shouldn't use the word fascist in serious discussions unless it relates to the historical political movement, a derivative movement, or as a slur. Otherwise it just means "authoritarian regime". Trump is certainly authoritarian in style, and likely a white nationalist, but his views are not a continuation of fascist ideology or tradition. Mussollini defined it essential as a totalarian regime with a single absolute ruler where the people serve the state with absolute loyalty. North Korea probably comes close to that. Trump really has more in common with your average Middle Eastern or African despot.

Wait! It finally makes sense! Trump intends to solve the immigration "problem" by turning the US into a"shit-hole" country no one will ever want to come to. It's been 5D chess all along.

[Kagus]

Trump really has more in common with your average Middle Eastern or African despot.

I keep telling you people; Trump's secretly an Muslim immigrant from Africa who's trying to turn the US into the new caliphate by expunging all other Muslims who could challenge his rule!

[wierd]

Specifically, "Fascism" is a form of government that attains power through a false narrative of national pride (Aryanism for historic nazis (basically, that Germany and the German people needed to return to this golden, and glorious past (that never existed), and that it was their birthright to do so.), MAGA for recent US [Which is based on the notion that there was a glorious past (that never existed), in which the US's innate superiority elevated it to the world power it eventually became, and that the US and its people need to return to the politics and mindsets of that period, in order to claim american manifest destiny once more.] ), which uses an ethnic or national identity as a platform for primacy ("Das Faterland" for historic nazis, "America First!" for recent US), and which combines 'corporate' (more trade groups and the like, like the RIAA and MPAA in the US, rather than Corporations) power with government power (like was attempted many times with the TPP and pals; Essentially handing such groups official [or defacto] government positions, and enabling them in such a fashion). It typically has militant expansionism, and uses aggressive state control of media to promulgate its message.

The modern US has a great many analogues to historic german nazi tactics, like I just pointed out.  All that's needed is a coup in government to usurp democratic elections, and to impose a dictator, along with a real hardcore promotion of Trumpist media and propaganda, possibly with Trump deciding to take Greenland over forcibly, because we somehow need the room or something.

Sidelining how horribly terrible modern parallels are because we havent gassed people to death en mass yet, is just not sensible.  The time to cry foul is BEFORE that happens.

[thompson]

"Fascism" (Italian for "the people's movement) was a political movement founded by Benito Mussolini after he broke ranks with the Italian Socialists and created an "third way" that was politically appealing to the upper class as it allowed them to keep their wealth, and perhaps more importantly, their heads. Mussolini's success inspired many copy cat movements which didn't really have much in the way of ideological unity aside from pandering to nationalism. Notably, most fascist leaders were nobodies before seizing power.

On the other hand, the US has many, many nationalistic and racist ideological traditions such as "white supremacy", "manifest destiny" and "US exceptionalism" many of which predate fascism by over a century. Indeed, the US white supremacist movement was a source of inspiration for the National Socialists who widely circulated propaganda about US eugenics programs to justify German programs of similar intent. To me Trump appears to have been much more strongly influenced by these US "intellectual" traditions rather than the mess that was fascism. On the other hand, the core feature of fascism - an unquestionable leader and ruthless suppression of any dissent - is largely absent. Not completely, mind you. Trump likely fantasizes about being a real dictator, but I doubt he's the first president to do that.

There is obviously overlap and ideological interchange between different extreme right movements in different countries, but lumping everything into the fascist draw doesn't help educate people about any of this. Trump is likely a white nationalist, and probably a white supremacist. That I don't (yet) consider him a fascist is not a consequence that I don't think he's "that bad" (white supremacism is not "better", just different), it's that I feel he is not motivated by fascist ideology specifically.

[Arx]

Trump likely fantasizes about being a real dictator, but I doubt he's the first president to do that.

I don't imagine any president ever hasn't at least briefly wished to be able to issue unilateral orders.

[Reelya]

Wouldn't you technically "go to jail" (metaphorically, as in at least be punished) for not paying tariffs too though

That's like saying a tax on something is the same as it being illegal, since if you don't pay the tax, you'll "go to jail". Clearly, they're different things. No, sanctions and tariffs are different things, the same as something being taxed is different to it being completely illegal.

[Naturegirl1999]

Thank you for teaching me about this, it’s good to learn

[Kagus]

Thank you for teaching me about this, it’s good to learn

A good learn is man to man.

Wait, no... A man good is hard to learn.

Shit! A learned man is good and hard!

A stroke me is having to think!