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[Gentlefish]

Let's call the physically violent faction of Anti-fascism the vanguard party because historical reasons.

Antifascists include YT channels as Thought Slime, Sean, ContraPoints, HBomberGuy, Vaush, Hassan, and Destiny. (technically. He's anti-union.) See r/breadtube for more examples. Polidice is pretty good for tearing down PragerU. (a notoriously bad YT channel)
They work to ostracize and deplatform the alt-right and fascists.

Bernie works Antifascist movements and bills in congress. He actively supports unions and works to return agency to the prole. AOC, Tlaib, and Omar are also doing Antifascist work, politically.

Antifascism isn't an organisation by any sense of the word. It is a shared philosophy that people put into practice in the ways they think they can best do so. I know I've left out other ways, like deprogramming, because I either am not aware of them or don't know enough about them to say anything.

And yes, there are people who take advantage of the chaos and use it to commit crime. That always happens in America. It's probably also happening in Hong-Kong but it's not reported on. They are always there regardless of what flag is swinging.

[Frumple]

Like. What have we got is. They show up at a lot of right-wing demonstrations. The vast, vast majority of antifa activity does not involve even approaching physically violent action. Physical altercations involving (and extra especially initiated by) antifa folks are actually pretty fucking rare, especially relative to how active that sort have been lately. Most of it's standard protest/counterprotest stuff; show up, make noise, make it clear the fash shite being peddled isn't welcome, so on, so forth. Even when flare ups happen most of the antifa aligned people don't get directly involved.

As SG has been saying, the bullshit about antifa demonstrators being particularly violent is, indeed, bullshit. Rank bullshit. Literal right-wing propaganda, pulling mountains out of their collective asses over the matter of molehills. SG'd probably be better at noting specific examples, though. I too am pretty beat at the mo'.

[Egan_BW]

People saying that antifas engaging in violence only strengthens their enemies are absolutely right, which is why the right wing tries so hard to point out when antifa is violent.

[sluissa]

People saying that antifas engaging in violence only strengthens their enemies are absolutely right, which is why the right wing tries so hard to point out when antifa is violent.

And this is why, even if most of the antifa activities are peaceful, it doesn't matter, because the violent incidents are going to be the ones spread through media and brought up as examples. The only thing you CAN do is separate the movement as a whole from these incidents and condemn them... but this is something that antifascists seem to refuse to do. They revel in, if not the actual activity, then rather the idea, of punching "nazis". And this is where the problem lies.

This is how you have escalation to the point where two sides can never meet and talk. It's what allows incidents like Portland and Charlottesville to happen. It perpetuates the cycle of people going deeper and deeper into their echo chambers and their radicalization as the other side becomes portrayed as more and more monstrous.

[SalmonGod]

People saying that antifas engaging in violence only strengthens their enemies are absolutely right, which is why the right wing tries so hard to point out when antifa is violent.

I'm convinced that I could post that the moon is green, and somebody would blandly respond with this unsubstantiated statement.  It's so non-sequitur at this point.

You believe this.  I get it.  Seriously.  I know that this is a thing that various people here believe to be true.  So simply repeating it point blank doesn't add anything.  Try to build an argument on something more than repetition of a statement.

I feel I am extremely generous about giving benefit of the doubt and being non-judgmental.  But at what point am I allowed to feel like what's really being said is.... "Today is Wednesday".... and the point isn't to convince but to repeat.... and I'm only prompting that repetition.

SG'd probably be better at noting specific examples, though. I too am pretty beat at the mo'.

Yeah, I'm exhausted, too.  I'm dealing with some super deep personal stuff these days (a divorce at the heart of it, but this does not begin to describe).  I devoted far too much time to this lastnight, but I'm a sucker for getting drawn in.  I have to be somewhere tomorrow and can't stay up so late again.  Got to focus and get my work done earlier so I can get to bed and not oversleep.  But I will maybe see about putting some stuff together.

[nenjin]

The only instances of fear of left-wing violence that I remember growing up and going through my adulthood were always references to late 70s/early 80s groups. Symbionese Liberation Army, Animal Liberation Front, Earth Liberation Front. Black Panthers (which I don't even think you can call Left Wing but since they're not white.....) So for me I'm not as leery of considering a left wing organization that actually does commit violent acts to...actually be a violent organization. There were always plenty of other right wing organizations throughout my life that committed much more violence, against average every day minorities, that many left wing organizations with violent intent always seemed way less problematic and threatening.

Antifa is a different beast though. And while there may be non-violent activities it engages in, that doesn't give them a pass on the violent things they do. Just like Sinn Fein being the political wing of the IRA and having a legitimate political presence didn't excuse the terrorism committed by the IRA, you're most strongly represented by the worst members of your group. If that's a problem then they shouldn't belong to your organization. And if you can't control them, then you don't really have an organization at all, merely the appearance of one for the PR optics.

[Gentlefish]

you don't really have an organization at all

This is literally the point. Antifaschistische is purposefully NOT organized. They are people banded together under the comraderie of fighting fascism.
There is not organization. There is no hierarchy. There are no leaders.

It's just people fighting fascists. Of whom are more active than ever. And it is not because of Antifa. It was never because of Antifa.

[nenjin]

What part about giving them the war they want do you not understand?

edit

Sorry that's kind of prickish. But with the president we have, attacking people in his camp in the streets is literally giving him a license to crack down with the weight of the government behind it, and accomplishes nothing other than giving the people committing the satisfaction that they "did something."

[sluissa]

What part about giving them the war they want do you not understand?

edit

Sorry that's kind of prickish. But with the president we have, attacking people in his camp in the streets is literally giving him a license to crack down with the weight of the government behind it, and accomplishes nothing other than giving the people committing the satisfaction that they "did something."

"One of the far-right rally organizers, Joe Biggs, told a reporter the event was a success. Biggs said, quote, “Go look at President Trump’s Twitter. He talked about Portland, said he’s watching antifa. That’s all we wanted. We wanted national attention, and we got it. Mission success,” Biggs said."

Exactly this...

[smjjames]

People saying that antifas engaging in violence only strengthens their enemies are absolutely right, which is why the right wing tries so hard to point out when antifa is violent.

And this is why, even if most of the antifa activities are peaceful, it doesn't matter, because the violent incidents are going to be the ones spread through media and brought up as examples. The only thing you CAN do is separate the movement as a whole from these incidents and condemn them... but this is something that antifascists seem to refuse to do. They revel in, if not the actual activity, then rather the idea, of punching "nazis". And this is where the problem lies.

This is how you have escalation to the point where two sides can never meet and talk. It's what allows incidents like Portland and Charlottesville to happen. It perpetuates the cycle of people going deeper and deeper into their echo chambers and their radicalization as the other side becomes portrayed as more and more monstrous.

As I said earlier, things are in a self reinforcing spiral with no easy (whether it's those easy button commercials or a magic wand or a genie) way out. As things are right now, it's hard to see a way out of this. Obviously things would have to start at the top, and I don't have to explain here what the problem is with current leadership (or lack thereof). Though the thing is that both sides have to agree to step down from standing on a thousand foot pillar screaming at the clouds and as I said before, neither wants to be the first to capitulate.

Anyways, in other news, Trump continues to be a vindicative idiot and cancels his Denmark trip over the PM refusing to sell Greenland. I'd also read that he said that Denmark has it at a loss at 700 mil or whatever, I wonder if he even understands why it's at a loss or that we'd be eating the loss as well and no amount of business acumen is going to change it because it's NOT a real estate deal.

What part about giving them the war they want do you not understand?

edit

Sorry that's kind of prickish. But with the president we have, attacking people in his camp in the streets is literally giving him a license to crack down with the weight of the government behind it, and accomplishes nothing other than giving the people committing the satisfaction that they "did something."

"One of the far-right rally organizers, Joe Biggs, told a reporter the event was a success. Biggs said, quote, “Go look at President Trump’s Twitter. He talked about Portland, said he’s watching antifa. That’s all we wanted. We wanted national attention, and we got it. Mission success,” Biggs said."

Exactly this...

Maybe we should bind and gag Trump then , since he's the biggest enabler of them all. Though I suspect that a mere mention of it would still trigger Trump regardless of how brief and analytically cold media coverage was of it.

[wierd]

Twitter just needs to ban Trump for ToS violation.

[Dunamisdeos]

OK, cool, looking forward to specific examples of non-violent Antifa making changes and whatnot instead of repetitive statements. Also some ways that their violence does not empower the right.

Let's do it.

[wierd]

The only real way I see, is to straight up be emotionless in all interactions with them.  Even the slightest bit of passion in it, even the tiniest bit of contempt, and they will adopt the armor of "They hate you, so you need to hate them more!"


The action has to be about the message and the actions, not the people.  That's why it has to be emotionless, and resolute. 

"I don't see how you can expect that from people" not withstanding, that is what is called for, and what is necessary. 


You have to demonstrate, through words AND actions, that you are not after them personally (as people).  The position is that their rhetoric and activities cannot be tolerated, and must be stopped. That divide between beliefs and personhood has to be reinforced. If you cross that line, even a little, it will be to all our detriment. 

Ruining people's lives because they happened to be photographed on the scene of a fascist media event, because "guilt by association!!", is not how you do that.  Spitting on people is not how you do that. Punching people is not how you do that.

Deplatforming, Encouraging service providers to follow the laws about hate speech, Assisting law enforcement and service providers to uphold those laws and requirements, while keeping a calm but stern face in public, and urging the media to stop covering these media events in any capacity besides raw informative reporting, talking with vulnerable friends and family to vaccinate them against the propaganda, and similar calculated but calm methods are how you deal with it at this stage.

Punching nazis is what comes when this stage fails.  We are not there yet. Do not encourage that behavior, even though it might make you feel good.

[PTTG??]

Seriously? And concentration camps for unpersons isn't that stage yet?

[wierd]

Not when there is still potential for the government to be corrected through nonviolent means.  They have not started eliminating dissenters yet.

When they start jailing people for dissenting, and wholly own the press, all peaceful avenues have been lost, and it is time to punch nazis.

(When you go about punching nazis at THIS stage, it accelerates the failure mode, and promotes that stage.  We want to PREVENT that stage, not hasten its coming.)