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[scriver]

Oh no, you're clearly right. Reading things off of your tone and behaviour is clearly the same as going crab people. Only a paranoid schizophrenic would every disagree with the wise Wierd!

[wierd]

Scriver, please stop. 

[scriver]

Are you going to edit that post into a long rant after posting it as well?

[wierd]

Since I have no-one else to respond to, No. If you have something of substance to respond in depth to, other than yet another ad-hominem, then yes.  But in this case, No.

[SalmonGod]

Frankly, I'm not the type who fawns over kids.  And I'll readily blanket describe all children as assholes.  Children are terrible people.  Because they're just getting started at being people.  Every thing you do in life, you start out being terrible at.  Kids are just getting started at literally everything.  So they're terrible.  They are.  I know.  They're not any more intrinsically beautiful than any other age of person, either.  They're just human beings in a stage of development.  So the way you describe brain-patterning comes off as really condescending.  I wasn't careful to match your exact terminology when I used brain damage, because you used the term in combination with a bunch of really hateful terminology describing kids, and describing how parents are incapable of objectivity where children are concerned. 

As for the social calculus thing, the problem there is children are going to be a part of the human experience until either the human experience ends.... or maybe we enter a drastic sci-fi future of immortality, or human beings grown to adulthood in vats with some baseline adult psychology programming somehow injected into them or something.  Treating children the same as cigarettes is detrimental to those children who are destined to eventually be adults, meaning it's detrimental to future society.  A non-parent may not have asked for the presence of children in their world, but it's in defiance of reality not to be tolerant of it anyway.

If you're genuine about "I only judge the obviously bad parents who call their kids angels while letting them get away with murder" (and yes I know such people exist), then I apologize if I've over-reacted.  But my personal experience is the people who speak the way you have here about kids and parents usually aren't genuine when they backpedal about how it's only bad parents they're talking about.  Usually, they just judge and pressure to make life more difficult for parents and kids, and then complain as if they had nothing to do with it when people entering into young adulthood are increasingly maladjusted, having grown up with no freedom, lower education standards, etc.  This is why I react the way I do to that kind of talk.

[scriver]

And you have the gall to call other people delusional and denialist. Well, I just discovered this post I hadn't read because of the post-skipping-on-new-page forum bug:

Scriver, take a deep breath, go outside, and listen to the birds for awhile.

You are clearly very angry; I expect this. It is what I have come to expect. I do not blame you.  However, you are being needlessly hostile here.


At no point did I imply that the brain repatterning that happens with parrenthood is brain damage.  You will find that I very carefully clarified this, when it was brought up.  "scrambled" is a bit of a loaded word, but what else would you call a phenomenon that makes people stop doing things they once cared about, drop all of their hopes and dreams, drop every ambition they ever had, and then subject everyone they know to a constant deluge of how wonderful their child is, despite the radical change in their living conditions, circumstance, and emotional well-being?

If it was caused by drugs, it would get an intervention.

Because it's babies, people ignore it. 

They shouldn't.  It's harmful to not just the parents, but also to everyone else.   The issue is a trigger for me, because I am often the brunt on the "YOU'RE STRANGE AND DEVIANT!" laser gun that inevitably shows up when the topic of these biases, and how they are abused by political and monied interests comes up, by people like myself, who have no desire what so ever to have children. (and especially so, since I have no sexual attraction to begin with that might predispose me toward being  parent accidentally.)

In short, I have trigger issues with this, in much the same ways a gay person does when implied derrogatory things are stated about them. I am not deviant, nor am I selfish. I simply have no desire for children, and the patterning process has no hold over me. When I say I cannot fathom why somebody would want to kiss a baby, I mean it literally. I really do not understand.  Instead of being angry and vindictive, maybe be understanding?

The "kissing babies" thing is a thing, and effective. If it was not, politicians would not engage in it.

The narrative that Biden is a creepy uncle, is the product of prior politicized rhetoric about him being inappropriate with women, getting crossed with the above PR stunt, resulting in backlash.

which contained more gems from you such as
- Hypocritically claiming I should go calm down when this entire discussion is based on you throwing a fit
- Comparing children to drugs because they both affect the brain, again showing grave immaturity and/or that you either lack understanding of basic human concepts and/or basic empathic abilities
- Again portray people who disagree with you as dumb all-caps writing idiots for not valuing the same things as your great enlightened self
- Claim to be as oppressed by the Great Bairned Masses as gay people have been by society
- And then again on the end make the hypocritical claim that I am "angry and vindictive" when this discussion has been nothing but you being angry, bitter, and vindictive against children and families.
- And lastly claim that I should show some sympathy for the poor, oppressed little you. Well, here's what I think about that. If you want me to have sympathy for you, maybe stop thinking everybody but you are idiots, get of your high horse, and show some damn sympathy yourself to begin with.

[wierd]

The thing is, the patterning *IS REAL*.  There is data.

People, as a general rule, are not as active at "thinking" when they make decisions as they believe. (there's some very interesting science on that actually.) I am also guilty of this, as I am a human as well. Human brains are a heuristic decision weight engine, and the patterning puts a very heavy hand on the scale.  This genuinely affects objectivity.

Likewise, my PTSD-like responses are the result of similar patterning, putting a heavy hand on the scale, illiciting less rational responses.

That thumb on the scale is exactly why asshats like Putin go kissing babies. I just want you to be mindful of that, and not go into full on denial mode.

I am quite genuine in my statements about understanding that children are what they are, and that parents are in a bind; and being understanding of this.  If I see a fussy kid at the cinema, my gut reaction is "Somebody needs a nap."  Not "Fucking people bringing their goddam kids to the movies."

However, I question the motives of the parent that brings a fussy toddler to an R rated movie with explosions. (Since kids are kinda impressionable, and such content probably is not appropriate for them, and likely to instigate unwanted behaviors either in the cinema, or later.)

That does not mean I think parents should never get to watch a Micheal Bay movie (If they really want to...), just that maybe they should arrange a sitter for that one.


@ scriver

The only one I see throwing a fit right now is you. I called it rightly.

[scriver]

I am quite genuine in my statements about understanding that children are what they are, and that parents are in a bind; and being understanding of this.  If I see a fussy kid at the cinema, my gut reaction is "Somebody needs a nap."  Not "Fucking people bringing their goddam kids to the movies."

The only way you can be genuine about anything like that right now is if somehow during your adolescence you confusedly took "understanding" to mean what people usually call "condescension".

[wierd]

Scriver, please don't make me have to alert the toad. It's too early to lock Ameripol this election season.

[smjjames]

I CAN still freely lock it to give it a timeout to cooldown.... Kind of a surprisingly sensitive topic, at least between the two of you, so, time to change the topic as it's already derailed pretty far.

[wierd]

I'm up for that.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Now that...whatever that was...is over, I'd like to come back to this:

But if you want to talk about what makes people unhappy, I'll tell you what makes parents really unhappy and is the reason I'm so sensitive to when people speak hatefully of children.

Because there is a crushing pressure these days to keep your kids out of any part of the public that is not specifically designated for them, and if you do, to make sure they don't behave like children.  If you take kids to a restaurant that's not kid-targeted fast food, half the place will glare at you for ruining their evening *even if the kids behave ideally*.  If you go to a store and your kid acts out, it's guaranteed that someone nearby will loudly complain about lack of discipline *even if it's obvious that the kid is having a reaction to being disciplined*.  You can't let kids play outside freely anymore, not just because of fear culture, but because there will be kid-hating people in the neighborhood who will refuse to tolerate their open presence in the area.  I've had people snap and yell at me and my family about my kids when they were holding my hand, hardly moving or making a noise.  They were just pissed off to have to be in the presence of them.

It makes it way more fucking difficult than it should be to raise them into healthy adults.  Having children would be much happier without having to deal with such bullshit.

This is among the more horrifying consequences of capitalist alienation that I've noticed. We live in a society in which everyone is high-strung on the edge literally all of the time, work or play, and increasingly it has resulted in the inability to experiment or really live. This is true for children, but it's also true for everything. The noise complaint is the bread and butter of capitalist social authoritarianism, the abolition of common experience. And sure, you don't like your neighbors playing loud music, but have you asked yourself why that grates on you so much that you'd summon an armed jackboot to enforce it?

The commonality here is that the annoyances of children ought to in a healthy social structure pass by without much worry at all, but since we're now maximized into being as close to a point of mental and emotional crisis as possible without actually crossing the line, that nothing of annoyance becomes the subject of an explosion of rage which is actually mostly fueled by the subdued horror that is wage labor and precarious existence.

And so people isolate their children, or beat the shit out them, or generally emotionally traumatize them until they SHUT THE FUCK UP, I'VE GOT WORK IN THE MORNING YOU LITTLE SHIT and so uh, eat the rich instead of your own family, but also remember that this is all manipulation.

[wierd]

Of course it is.

I dont really want to go back into the topic prior, but escaping from seemingly inescapable mental traps requires re-evaluating why you decide things, and being honest about them.


The people with the resources to really study the biases and 'group decision dynamics' of whole populaces are governments, and their respective leaders. And they most certainly do. Specifically to manipulate.

Again, the thing with biden and the kid kissing; This is a pretty clear cut example of both contending power groups twisting the public's decision knobs as hard as they can.


I dunno. What I am trying to say is, if you let them control your thinking for you, you are robbed of your agency. Keeping you just at the edge, and unable to move, but still empowering their networks of control, is exactly where governments want their populaces. If you want things to change, you have to change the narrative, and rob them of that control over you.

[Naturegirl1999]

Of course it is.

I dont really want to go back into the topic prior, but escaping from seemingly inescapable mental traps requires re-evaluating why you decide things, and being honest about them.


The people with the resources to really study the biases and 'group decision dynamics' of whole populaces are governments, and their respective leaders. And they most certainly do. Specifically to manipulate.

Again, the thing with biden and the kid kissing; This is a pretty clear cut example of both contending power groups twisting the public's decision knobs as hard as they can.


I dunno. What I am trying to say is, if you let them control your thinking for you, you are robbed of your agency. Keeping you just at the edge, and unable to move, but still empowering their networks of control, is exactly where governments want their populaces. If you want things to change, you have to change the narrative, and rob them of that control over you.

Thank you for this, I regret that my question turned into an argument. I just wondered why politicians do a certain action. Thinking about why you think the things you think can lead to new thoughts you’ve never had before

[wierd]

Of course it is.

I dont really want to go back into the topic prior, but escaping from seemingly inescapable mental traps requires re-evaluating why you decide things, and being honest about them.


The people with the resources to really study the biases and 'group decision dynamics' of whole populaces are governments, and their respective leaders. And they most certainly do. Specifically to manipulate.

Again, the thing with biden and the kid kissing; This is a pretty clear cut example of both contending power groups twisting the public's decision knobs as hard as they can.


I dunno. What I am trying to say is, if you let them control your thinking for you, you are robbed of your agency. Keeping you just at the edge, and unable to move, but still empowering their networks of control, is exactly where governments want their populaces. If you want things to change, you have to change the narrative, and rob them of that control over you.

Thank you for this, I regret that my question turned into an argument. I just wondered why politicians do a certain action. Thinking about why you think the things you think can lead to new thoughts you’ve never had before

It's OK, it's not your fault.  I legitimately DO have a problem with being an officious asshole. I accept this. It's something I need to work on.

I really do need to work on better delivery.