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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4202249 times)

Trekkin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #30165 on: May 08, 2019, 08:46:21 pm »

Doesn't it often bloom and fade, despite it being particularly bad right now? I bet you 10 bux he's going to just wait for it to recede naturally and pretend that he pissed in the water and it turned itself to gold or some such.

Yeah, like how he forces back rising sea levels twice a day.

Come the election he'll be claiming that his pre-dawn tweets summon the Sun.
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #30166 on: May 08, 2019, 08:47:44 pm »

Doesn't it often bloom and fade, despite it being particularly bad right now? I bet you 10 bux he's going to just wait for it to recede naturally and pretend that he pissed in the water and it turned itself to gold or some such.
It's a nearabout annual occurrence, yes. Comes and goes regularly. There's identified contributing factors (note: They're largely ones a GOP ways politician wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole), but it's mostly natural as near as anyone seems to be able to tell.

Though no, it wasn't a promise to "look into it". Words were explicitly 'get rid of'. Pandering, definitely, but that shit was a specific promise, not a non-specific one.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2019, 08:49:30 pm by Frumple »
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Trekkin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #30167 on: May 08, 2019, 08:53:42 pm »

Doesn't it often bloom and fade, despite it being particularly bad right now? I bet you 10 bux he's going to just wait for it to recede naturally and pretend that he pissed in the water and it turned itself to gold or some such.
It's a nearabout annual occurrence, yes. Comes and goes regularly. There's identified contributing factors (note: They're largely ones a GOP ways politician wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole), but it's mostly natural as near as anyone seems to be able to tell.

Well, the underlying K.brevis bloom is natural; the earliest record we have of it is from the 1500s. It's lasting longer, though, as the ocean warms and the runoff gets worse, so there's more time for brevetoxin to bioaccumulate up the food chain.
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #30168 on: May 08, 2019, 08:58:38 pm »

Yeh. Like I said, stuff a GOP ways politician wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole. There'd either have to be a hell of a tech reveal or a 180 on environmental and agricultural regulation and somehow I doubt either comes out of a republican initiative for at least another generation or two.
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Trekkin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #30169 on: May 08, 2019, 09:20:51 pm »

There'd either have to be a hell of a tech reveal

There have been anti-K.brevis filterable lytic agents before; whether deep sequencing one for specific antialgal hits counts as "one hell of a tech reveal" is up to you, but I've done weirder things with phage display.
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #30170 on: May 08, 2019, 09:32:26 pm »

I mean, if creating and deploying it on a scale sufficient to stop gulf coast red tide, presumably permanently, wouldn't count as a hell of a reveal I'm not sure what would.
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Trekkin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #30171 on: May 08, 2019, 09:45:13 pm »

I mean, if creating and deploying it on a scale sufficient to stop gulf coast red tide, presumably permanently, wouldn't count as a hell of a reveal I'm not sure what would.

Not permanently, no; mutations and anti-GMO hysteria aside, every FLA that's been found stops working after a while, and we actually do want the algae around. What you'd probably want to do is mine a new FLA for transmembrane domains like I suggested* and build a ghost virus around them and a genetically encodeable phytotoxin. I forget if phaseolotoxin works on algae, but red tide causes dead zones anyway so off-target effects are inherently mitigated.

Then you wouldn't need much more than a fermenter and a boat with a really big bucket on it.

*EDIT: or tmv-esque capsid proteins, I guess? There aren't terribly many possible geometries here, is what I'm saying.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2019, 10:12:55 pm by Trekkin »
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SalmonGod

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #30172 on: May 09, 2019, 12:28:39 am »

You have the choice to leave and find another work, you can aspire to get more money and scale the salary ladder by performance and/or getting more academic achievements and eventually you are also allowed to start a business and eventually employ other people. Is really far from slavery as long the enomy works at least halfassedy.

My thoughts on this are the same as your reaction to any positive take on socialism.

To me, this is an unrealistic romantic depiction of capitalism that doesn't match up with 90% of the population's lived reality.

And if you want to talk about strawmen you will hard pressed to find anyone who will defend rent seeking.

If it's a strawman to suggest that defending capitalism means defending an extremely prominent capitalist practice, then what the hell does that say about capitalism?  And it's not like your claims about socialism, where the behaviors of associated historical figures that you point to have nothing to do with the ideology.  Rent-seeking is maybe not an explicit goal of capitalist ideology, but a completely unavoidable outcome.  The core of capitalist ideology is the game of leveraging property for more property in the most efficient manner possible, and there's no other behavior more in tune with that game.


"Profiting off of laborers" on the other hand, is a very ideological way of perceiving the labor market.

Yet what you go on to describe is exactly this, with the generous caveat that it's actually a good thing because rich people do things poor people can't.

Organizing a productive enterprise and contributing the capital required to actually start it are of paramount importance. Do you actually believe that executives just sit around doing nothing but collecting a check? Or that shareholders don't contribute anything of value to enterprise? Organizations, especially large organizations, need to be managed, or they will collapse into a mess of confusion, infighting, and factionalism, and drag the livelihoods of who knows how many people along with them. Managing large organizations effectively and making good choices for them going forward is an uncommon skill. Shareholders, large shareholders anyway, usually do take part in the management process. But even if they don't they still provide both funding for the organization (through investment) and they keep the organization on task - being a productive enterprise - instead of making room for entryists, or people who want to use the organization's resources for whatever their pet project or cause may be. Nobody is forcing you to work for anybody either, unlike what happened in the "'owned' by the workers and managed for them by the state" model of socialism that set the standard for the model in practice you are perfectly free to set out to make your own living. There's no guarantee you'll succeed of course, but there was no guarantee anyone else would either. If you haven't got any useful skills, haven't got any idea how to run a business, and haven't got an actual plan you will almost certainly fail, but nobody is stopping you from doing that, either! Just don't expect anyone else to pitch in to fund it for you.

Please.  And you accused my speech of being too ideological to parse.  Good grief.

I've been in the workforce for 15 years, and the last 4 years in low level management at a mid-size company.  My experience so far has been that the world continues to function as much as it does only because bottom level workers explicitly neglect the orders of clueless executives at every opportunity.  Because our company isn't that large, I've been privy to high level management and business decisions, and executive conference calls.  I can verify pretty confidently that their world is a mess of neurotic confusion and circle jerking. 

The only reason they persist is because they inherited all the cards.  They use them to collectively conspire to ensure they hold all the bargaining power in labor agreements.  Kinda hard to strike out on your own and try to compete with the people who dictate the terms of your daily existence.  Not to mention the basic contradiction in stating that contributing capital is of paramount importance to the founding of an enterprise to legitimize rich executives, but then turn around in the same paragraph and suggest that anyone can do it (of course "there's no guarantee you'll succeed" *insert mustache twirl and evil cackling*). 

"Nobody is forcing you to work for anybody" indeed......... nevermind that being homeless is literally against the law in many places, specifically because homeless people are inconvenient to capitalism.  But yeah, sure.  I can just stop and try to start my own business tomorrow with zero resources and certainly fail and suffer horribly as a consequence, but at least we can say that technically nobody's forcing me to work for anybody, right?  Just that doing anything else from the position of someone who didn't inherit a bunch of wealth and connections is a really bad idea, but totally not the same as being forced.

For all that though the actual central thrust of socialism, 'worker ownership,' is not objectionable to me at all. There's no ideological reason things like co-ops, or stock options for employees, or profit sharing compensation schemes shouldn't exist.

But they're vanishingly rare because they're inconvenient to social control of the upper class, or require favoring generosity over profit and competition.

I will never, ever trust socialists with power though, because they are inseparably linked for both historical and practical reasons to a lot of other, far more terrible ideas. Marxism, class warfare, atheism, internationalism, violent "redistribution," liquidation of inconvenient peoples, political groups, and social classes, and political repression are all part and parcel, in whole or in part; and in the modern era we can add mass migration, overt anti-white rhetoric, and cancerous sexual politics to the list as well.

Marxism - what?
Class Warfare - Only bad when the lower classes fight back, right?
Atheism - what?
Internationalism - what?
Violent "redistribution" - You mean like what capitalists do to indigenous people?
Liquidation of inconvenient peoples - Happens under capitalism, except when the circumstances are ripe for slavery instead
^ Political Groups - Happens under capitalism
^ Social Classes - See class warfare/slavery
Political repression - Happens under capitalism
Mass migration - Happens under/because of capitalism
Overt anti-white rhetoric - what?
Cancerous sexual politics - Happens so very much under capitalism
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #30173 on: May 09, 2019, 01:17:46 am »

It gets downplayed by the media, but there really is a strong anti-white bent to many (not most, just many) mouthpieces on the minority rights front.

If you want, I can find you some examples.
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Trekkin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #30174 on: May 09, 2019, 01:50:04 am »

That is kind of the point of identity politics as a cause unto itself, though: as long as everyone focuses on how the people who took their stuff are white or male or cis or heterosexual, nobody gets to ask why they were also all rich, or how so much of their stuff could be taken in the first place.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2019, 02:04:48 am by Trekkin »
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #30175 on: May 09, 2019, 02:21:52 am »

It is important to remember that it really is not about race, it is about social class, at least as far as the 1% and their endless hunger to have "more" is concerned.

When you have a majority demographic, you automatically get skewed results concerning statistics.   EG-- if 80+ percent of total pop is white, then ~80% of the 1% top resource owners can reasonably be expected to be white, --without any racism going on!

The plutocrats do not significantly care one fucking iota about what skin color you have; they care about if you are one of them or not-- that is determined by how brutally cut-throat you are in business decisions, and how much money you make. Not what skin color you have. (though there *IS* endemic racism in that group [as with any demographic], their classism is significantly more pronounced.)

Most people will NEVER meet their criteria for being treated "human", and so racism is a whimsically silly thing to embellish on the top. 

Drawing attention to "They're all white! And male! ALL OF THEM!" just says "Hey, I don't understand demographics or statistics! I will falsely attribute a dependent feature as an independent one, and distract from the conversation that REALLY needs to be had, strictly for my own political advantage!"

The issue is the classism, and the obscene way they treat people not in their in-crowd, and the disproportionate degree of power they wield, not what color skin they have.  They could literally be green reptilians, a-la David Icke. The same paradigms would be in play.

Diluting the conversation so that it is about race instead of class disadvantage, only works in their favor, because it prevents the 99% from uniting.


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SalmonGod

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #30176 on: May 09, 2019, 03:17:59 am »

And here we have a couple words out of a long post that had nothing to do with identity politics being used to turn a conversation about capitalism/classism into a conversation about how identity politics is a distraction from focus on capitalism/classism.
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #30177 on: May 09, 2019, 03:20:29 am »

It was more an elaboration about "Anti-white rhetoric", and how it relates to the topic of discussion. (It's a distraction, and a needless one.)

Like I said I can find you examples of it being done if you want, because it does happen.
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Kagus

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #30178 on: May 09, 2019, 03:29:16 am »

You're forgetting the real issue here: Atheism!

Little bit surprised no one's brought up tribal/small-scale socialism yet, but I guess that comes later.

And is Marxism really anything more than "Robots are fucking awesome"?

SalmonGod

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #30179 on: May 09, 2019, 03:37:18 am »

It was more an elaboration about "Anti-white rhetoric", and how it relates to the topic of discussion. (It's a distraction, and a needless one.)

Like I said I can find you examples of it being done if you want, because it does happen.

I believe that it exists among minority rights movements.  I see some of it occasionally first-hand.  But we weren't talking about minority rights movements?  Anti-white rhetoric was brought up as a claim by Baffler as something attributed to socialism.
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.
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