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[SalmonGod]

Essentially, beating your kid because he tried to run into traffic means he does not learn that running into traffic results in danger because cars are dangerous, but instead that offending my dad results in beatings, because offending people bigger than me means they have an excuse to beat me.

A toddler running into traffic is typically the scenario I use when explaining that physical punishment is appropriate in some situations.  Little kids, toddler age especially, are smart as hell... but not sophisticated.  They're little bundles of curiousity and energy and raw, simplistic emotion.  They're absolutely fearless and will try to kill themselves 100 times a day.  You cannot communicate the idea of consequences to them directly.  There is no way to explain to them that if they run in front of a moving car they will die.  It's best to let them suffer the consequences of their own actions wherever possible to learn how they can hurt themselves and appreciate caution on their own.  But when they're going to get themselves killed, conditioning a fear of consequence for specific actions in place of letting them get themselves killed is a suitable temporary measure.  But it has to be immediate and direct and consistently applied the instant they attempt to run into traffic to ensure strong association.

Outside of that, yeah, my philosophy as a parent and regarding authoritarian attitudes in general is that fear of punishment (of any kind) doesn't teach right and wrong.  It has very little use outside of that specific type of situation.

Spoiler: Feeding a three-year-old an energy drink sounds like a great way for PARENTS to learn about the consequences of their actions. (click to show/hide)

Stimutacs was the best!

[Dunamisdeos]

Salmongod you explained that much more precisely than I did and I agree with that 100%.

We aren't trying to teach fear of punishment, we're teaching cause and effect at the very least, and right and wrong in many cases.

bay12anddunamisdeosdoesnottakeresponsiblityforthersultsoffeedingchildrenstimutacs

Anyway Kagus these things are things that can be committed to rather than taught at a young age, you'd probz be a good dad if you ever decide you want to be one just based on the amount of forethought you're obviously putting into it. Live your own life though, be what makes you happy, etc. I've known plenty of people who never had kids and had perfectly fulfilled lives.

Back to politics, Betsy Devos is the actual fucking satan devil and I'll fight everyone on that. Betsy Devos is proof of the supernatural, being the actual Satan and all. If you ever have kids make sure they don't go to school or they might end up as indentured servants on a goddam farm by that time who knows.

-I made edits-

[LordBaal]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Sorry to veer the subject again, but Elliott Abrams gave some declarations about how the sanctions against Maduro will put him out, and the PSUV (United Socialist Party of Venezuela) needs to come closer to Guaido, be part of our future and participate in the next elections and how a military force is not necessary in a change of goverment and our own military will have to protect us in the event of a transition.

I guess we just doged the bullet of the "possibility of becoming collateral damage" but we are bitting the "stay hungry, sick and afraid for many years more" bullet really hard. A couple of points that migth come over Abrams head,:

Maduro & Co. don't give a shit about sanctions, they just keep happily plundering what they can here and keep getting that juicy income from drug trafficking so they really don't care about this piece of land beyond using it as a power base, hideout and reamin on a "diplomatic immunity" status.

Inviting the PSUV to be "part of the future" is akin to have had the NAZI party engage on the future of germany rigth after WWII ended.

Expecting the military to protect us from... themselves? The armed forces of Venezuela became the armed branch of the PSUV and hence the ruling mob. Their higher ups are involved in more corruption than Hoffa, Nixon and Escobar together, the middle guys are either deep into this and getting rich or too afraid and being hunt down, the lower ranks are enjoying the power trip of basically being able to mug anyone they want without repercussions and shoot unarmed people in the protests, or are leaving the hell outta here. This ranks are being refilled with whatever they can find and given the conditions the people that join them aren't exactly good people. And at any rate they leave the dirtiers work for the paramilitary called Colectivos (not afiliated with the Borg despite also being mindless drones) or cuban guys doning venezuelan uniforms.

The far and few military, mostly middle guys, that migth have something to object are watched closely by their peers and external agents, you see every week some of them being arrested and dragged away to the "tomb", a poor man's Guantanamo smack at a side of Caracas.

So no my dear Elliott, I know you migth have more knowledge in several orders of magnitude than me on international affairs and such, but unless you know something that I dont, having lived inside the problem for 20 years now, I beg to differ with you. Maybe he does know something, and mayne by next friday I'll be eating my own words but thats highly unlikely.

 

It seems I'll eat my words?

[Culise]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Sorry to veer the subject again, but Elliott Abrams gave some declarations about how the sanctions against Maduro will put him out, and the PSUV (United Socialist Party of Venezuela) needs to come closer to Guaido, be part of our future and participate in the next elections and how a military force is not necessary in a change of goverment and our own military will have to protect us in the event of a transition.

I guess we just doged the bullet of the "possibility of becoming collateral damage" but we are bitting the "stay hungry, sick and afraid for many years more" bullet really hard. A couple of points that migth come over Abrams head,:

Maduro & Co. don't give a shit about sanctions, they just keep happily plundering what they can here and keep getting that juicy income from drug trafficking so they really don't care about this piece of land beyond using it as a power base, hideout and reamin on a "diplomatic immunity" status.

Inviting the PSUV to be "part of the future" is akin to have had the NAZI party engage on the future of germany rigth after WWII ended.

Expecting the military to protect us from... themselves? The armed forces of Venezuela became the armed branch of the PSUV and hence the ruling mob. Their higher ups are involved in more corruption than Hoffa, Nixon and Escobar together, the middle guys are either deep into this and getting rich or too afraid and being hunt down, the lower ranks are enjoying the power trip of basically being able to mug anyone they want without repercussions and shoot unarmed people in the protests, or are leaving the hell outta here. This ranks are being refilled with whatever they can find and given the conditions the people that join them aren't exactly good people. And at any rate they leave the dirtiers work for the paramilitary called Colectivos (not afiliated with the Borg despite also being mindless drones) or cuban guys doning venezuelan uniforms.

The far and few military, mostly middle guys, that migth have something to object are watched closely by their peers and external agents, you see every week some of them being arrested and dragged away to the "tomb", a poor man's Guantanamo smack at a side of Caracas.

So no my dear Elliott, I know you migth have more knowledge in several orders of magnitude than me on international affairs and such, but unless you know something that I dont, having lived inside the problem for 20 years now, I beg to differ with you. Maybe he does know something, and mayne by next friday I'll be eating my own words but thats highly unlikely.

 

It seems I'll eat my words?

Perhaps. Either way, here's hoping you stay safe in the present situation. 

[LordBaal]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Sorry to veer the subject again, but Elliott Abrams gave some declarations about how the sanctions against Maduro will put him out, and the PSUV (United Socialist Party of Venezuela) needs to come closer to Guaido, be part of our future and participate in the next elections and how a military force is not necessary in a change of goverment and our own military will have to protect us in the event of a transition.

I guess we just doged the bullet of the "possibility of becoming collateral damage" but we are bitting the "stay hungry, sick and afraid for many years more" bullet really hard. A couple of points that migth come over Abrams head,:

Maduro & Co. don't give a shit about sanctions, they just keep happily plundering what they can here and keep getting that juicy income from drug trafficking so they really don't care about this piece of land beyond using it as a power base, hideout and reamin on a "diplomatic immunity" status.

Inviting the PSUV to be "part of the future" is akin to have had the NAZI party engage on the future of germany rigth after WWII ended.

Expecting the military to protect us from... themselves? The armed forces of Venezuela became the armed branch of the PSUV and hence the ruling mob. Their higher ups are involved in more corruption than Hoffa, Nixon and Escobar together, the middle guys are either deep into this and getting rich or too afraid and being hunt down, the lower ranks are enjoying the power trip of basically being able to mug anyone they want without repercussions and shoot unarmed people in the protests, or are leaving the hell outta here. This ranks are being refilled with whatever they can find and given the conditions the people that join them aren't exactly good people. And at any rate they leave the dirtiers work for the paramilitary called Colectivos (not afiliated with the Borg despite also being mindless drones) or cuban guys doning venezuelan uniforms.

The far and few military, mostly middle guys, that migth have something to object are watched closely by their peers and external agents, you see every week some of them being arrested and dragged away to the "tomb", a poor man's Guantanamo smack at a side of Caracas.

So no my dear Elliott, I know you migth have more knowledge in several orders of magnitude than me on international affairs and such, but unless you know something that I dont, having lived inside the problem for 20 years now, I beg to differ with you. Maybe he does know something, and mayne by next friday I'll be eating my own words but thats highly unlikely.

 

It seems I'll eat my words?

Perhaps. Either way, here's hoping you stay safe in the present situation.

Thanks dude! I'll keep us safe.

[Trekkin]

We aren't trying to teach fear of punishment, we're teaching cause and effect at the very least, and right and wrong in many cases.

The knock-on effects of that can be unpredictable, though; there's a point where a kid learns not only "if my parents become aware of things they don't like, I get hurt" but also "if I don't like what's going on, I should hurt people weaker than me until I feel better." It happens sooner than people think, too. Kids don't always advertise when they've figured stuff out, particularly if you react negatively to them telling you things.

It's also very hard to de-escalate from that back to reasoning with them, because you can't logic them out of something you didn't logic them into -- so, ultimately, everything is either a threat or a suggestion. I can tell you from experience that once a kid raised under that paradigm gets strong enough that the threats stop working, you're essentially done parenting them.

[Kagus]

Back to politics, Betsy Devos is the actual fucking satan devil and I'll fight everyone on that.

Hehe, betcha think ye'r funny.

[smjjames]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Sorry to veer the subject again, but Elliott Abrams gave some declarations about how the sanctions against Maduro will put him out, and the PSUV (United Socialist Party of Venezuela) needs to come closer to Guaido, be part of our future and participate in the next elections and how a military force is not necessary in a change of goverment and our own military will have to protect us in the event of a transition.

I guess we just doged the bullet of the "possibility of becoming collateral damage" but we are bitting the "stay hungry, sick and afraid for many years more" bullet really hard. A couple of points that migth come over Abrams head,:

Maduro & Co. don't give a shit about sanctions, they just keep happily plundering what they can here and keep getting that juicy income from drug trafficking so they really don't care about this piece of land beyond using it as a power base, hideout and reamin on a "diplomatic immunity" status.

Inviting the PSUV to be "part of the future" is akin to have had the NAZI party engage on the future of germany rigth after WWII ended.

Expecting the military to protect us from... themselves? The armed forces of Venezuela became the armed branch of the PSUV and hence the ruling mob. Their higher ups are involved in more corruption than Hoffa, Nixon and Escobar together, the middle guys are either deep into this and getting rich or too afraid and being hunt down, the lower ranks are enjoying the power trip of basically being able to mug anyone they want without repercussions and shoot unarmed people in the protests, or are leaving the hell outta here. This ranks are being refilled with whatever they can find and given the conditions the people that join them aren't exactly good people. And at any rate they leave the dirtiers work for the paramilitary called Colectivos (not afiliated with the Borg despite also being mindless drones) or cuban guys doning venezuelan uniforms.

The far and few military, mostly middle guys, that migth have something to object are watched closely by their peers and external agents, you see every week some of them being arrested and dragged away to the "tomb", a poor man's Guantanamo smack at a side of Caracas.

So no my dear Elliott, I know you migth have more knowledge in several orders of magnitude than me on international affairs and such, but unless you know something that I dont, having lived inside the problem for 20 years now, I beg to differ with you. Maybe he does know something, and mayne by next friday I'll be eating my own words but thats highly unlikely.

 

It seems I'll eat my words?

Perhaps. Either way, here's hoping you stay safe in the present situation.

Thanks dude! I'll keep us safe.

Sec. of State even coined a name for it, 'Operacion Libertad'

[Trekkin]

Back to politics, Betsy Devos is the actual fucking satan devil and I'll fight everyone on that.

Hehe, betcha think ye'r funny.

Give him a week to figure out how to bill separated families for daycare. Because, obviously, refugee jail is just summer camp.

[MrRoboto75]

Back to politics, Betsy Devos is the actual fucking satan devil and I'll fight everyone on that.

Hehe, betcha think ye'r funny.

Give him a week to figure out how to bill separated families for daycare. Because, obviously, refugee jail is just summer camp.

Its a summer camp to help those with ADD.  A concentration camp, if you will.

[smjjames]

Back to politics, Betsy Devos is the actual fucking satan devil and I'll fight everyone on that.

Hehe, betcha think ye'r funny.

Give him a week to figure out how to bill separated families for daycare. Because, obviously, refugee jail is just summer camp.

Its a summer camp to help those with ADD.  A concentration camp, if you will.

Bad joke, come on man. XD

Anyhow, isn't making asylum seekers have to pay in order to seek asylum against international law? If not the spirit of it.

[EnigmaticHat]

Back to politics, Betsy Devos is the actual fucking satan devil and I'll fight everyone on that.

Only Americans would look at "6 digit student debt not eliminated by bankruptcy" and think "man our civil servants don't deserve that but everyone else does."

Only the current administration would intentionally fail to fix even that narrow problem and let a 700 million dollar budget sit around.  264 applicants accepted is getting into "every last one of them had a personal contact" territory.

[nenjin]

The money is probably getting misappropriated, would be my guess.

[EnigmaticHat]

I'd buy it in heartbeat, but the sad thing is it might not be.  Intentionally not spending a budget so that the education department loses it next year is exactly something Betsy Devos would do, her schtick is she doesn't want public education to exist so that way everyone will have to go to private charter schools.  For example a close friend of mine was supposed to get federal assistance last year in paying for grad school and the money just... didn't arrive.  I think it eventually materialized months later so it was never stolen either.  The administration of "why don't we just not do our jobs?"

[JoshuaFH]

Is that how it works? That if you don't spend it, you lose it? That seems like it would create extremely crooked incentives, and seems like it'd be the kind of financial control that only totally clueless people would use. Or in other words, exactly what you'd expect out of the government.