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[EnigmaticHat]

This is how we normalize the Presidency as a for-profit enterprise, by downplaying what's going on right now. "Oh there's bigger problems....."

And three elections from now the president elect gets to point back to the Trump administration as an example of why what they're doing now is A-OK. If previous presidents had to divest themselves of even the smallest ventures to stay above board, why are we giving arguably the biggest and most ruthless business tycoon a pass?

To be fair this situation isn't completely unique, Nixon also had a large part of the country that thought he was horrible and a congress that wouldn't impeach him because he was their guy.  Maybe not as blatant as Trump, but the worst thing Nixon did (continuing the Vietnam War even tho he believed it couldn't be won, for the sake of getting re-elected) has a higher human cost than anything Trump has done.  Although the stuff at the border is inching closer to that (see: complete lack of tracking separated children), as is Trump's policy changes towards Syria, and his support of congress in pretending Puerto Rico isn't governed by us.  Actually there's been a lot of human cost to Trump's policies but I still don't think its as bad as Nixon yet.

I don't think Nixon in particular set bad precedents since a majority of Americans hated him by the end... although IIRC his secretary of defense made some pretty horrible changes in the Pentagon and those stuck.

Unfortunately between Reagan and Nixon there's little about Trump that doesn't have a direct parallel.  Which is kinda disturbing because it means this wasn't really a fluke the way people are acting it is.  In our last few presidents we've had multiple Trumps... although each had only some aspects of the larger, awfuller whole.  I suppose you could look at that as comforting as well, in the sense that things have been nearly as bad in the past.  Which means we aren't on an inevitable downward spiral at least.

[nenjin]

I just want to know how many construction companies the Trump family spun up as soon as billions of dollars became available for wall construction.

[Baffler]

-snip-

And you, whose entire argument is "if you've got nothing to hide you've got nothing to fear?" When has that ever been spoken sincerely? Frankly I don't think congressional Democrats and their media mouthpieces have the credibility or integrity to make that kind of demand. We already know there's nothing criminal, as much as you want to pretend that the IRS doesn't know what they're doing there's simply no basis for that in reality. The reality is that it doesn't matter what his returns look like. Even if they are so completely unimpeachable that nothing, not even a narrative like "he isn't as rich as he says and therefore a liar!" or "rich man bad!" will get any traction, it'll just be on to whatever other stupid thing they want to go on about. They won't "eat shit", and they won't look foolish to anyone except the people who already knew they were fools. Again, there is no compelling reason for the administration to do anything but tell them to fuck off.

[nenjin]

When has that ever been spoken sincerely?

By conservative republicans over the last 40 years when it comes to crime and punishment? Where do you think the left got that phrase?

They won't "eat shit", and they won't look foolish to anyone except the people who already knew they were fools. Again, there is no compelling reason for the administration to do anything but tell them to fuck off.

Other than, you know, what every other president has done. Other than that, no reason.

But oh right. Orange Man so oppressed he gets to change the way things work to suit his needs.

The simple fact that his family has misrepresented their wealth to maximize profits at the expense of literally everyone else prior to his election, and that doesn't give you pause, is the truly astounding thing.

[EnigmaticHat]

-snip-

And you, whose entire argument is "if you've got nothing to hide you've got nothing to fear?" When has that ever been spoken sincerely? Frankly I don't think congressional Democrats and their media mouthpieces have the credibility or integrity to make that kind of demand. We already know there's nothing criminal, as much as you want to pretend that the IRS doesn't know what they're doing there's simply no basis for that in reality. The reality is that it doesn't matter what his returns look like. Even if they are so completely unimpeachable that nothing, not even a narrative like "he isn't as rich as he says and therefore a liar!" or "rich man bad!" will get any traction, it'll just be on to whatever other stupid thing they want to go on about. They won't "eat shit", and they won't look foolish to anyone except the people who already knew they were fools. Again, there is no compelling reason for the administration to do anything but tell them to fuck off.

What drugs are you smoking?  Trump said he would put his businesses in a blind trust, put his family members in charge of the trust, then gave them complete access to his administration and to state secrets.  He's been accepting bribes through Mar a Lago basically openly for the entire time he's been president.

As for his tax returns, its been confirmed that he was still in talks about a possible Trump tower in Russia during the caimpaign, and its been all but confirmed* that he received a large share of the Russian state oil company as a bribe after the election.  Remember, illegal revenue still has to be included when you file for taxes.  So either Trump didn't include his under the table dealings in which case his tax returns are themselves evidence of a crime, OR he did include them and the tax returns are useful for the attempt to investigate Trump.  Or he didn't include them and they never happened, in which case they're still useful for the investigation.

This is to say nothing about the fact that Trump and his older subordinates all act like old timey gangsters... see above.

Also, your "if you've got nothing to hide you've got nothing to fear?" defense only applies to things that are normally private.  Hiding things that are normally revealed is suspicious, always.  Refuse a drug test when you're applying for a job, see how innocent your prospective employer thinks you are.

*because it was in the Steele dossier, which has been repeatedly confirmed as true by journalists and intelligence officials that attempt to verify its claims

[Dunamisdeos]

I think both of you are right.

There is no practical reason in a legal sense to demand his tax returns. If there was something illegal, the IRS would have uncovered it long ago. Unless the IRS has been covering up for him for years, decades even (not impossible I suppose) then there's no legal reason to demand them. The big scary inquisition into his dealings with Russia turned up nothing on him, so right now this is a shot in the dark. They don't have further evidence that makes them suspect anything, at least nothing that they've come forward with.

However, if the goal is to prove that he lied about his income and tax returns, then there are gains to be achieved there from the perspective of his opposition. I recall theories about whether or not he filed taxes at all being flung around back during election, but that seems unlikely. Also, it's not illegal to lie about your income as long as you pay your taxes, so an argument could be made in this case that congress is abusing their authority for political gain (dirt on Trump for the next election).

Really though I gots ta be honest, whether it's technically legal or not I as a voter am extremely interested as to whether he lied or not, and I do feel that this is, in the context of whether or not the POTUS is lying about his income, an acceptable exception. I say let congress do its thing in this case.

[SalmonGod]

I repeat.  We're talking about a government official's privacy in an era where government invasion of privacy is endemic.  Even if you think it's pointless, why make a fuss about it.  Let it play out and enjoy the schadenfreude.  Being offended on his behalf is incredibly misguided.  This has no effect on precedent in political behavior (the worst possible interpretation of this is it's the democrat's version of demanding a birth certificate) or individual rights.

[Baffler]

-snip-

Not even Steele himself stands by the Steele dossier's findings and sued people for publishing it. It's just a compendium of rumors, and as many of claims it contains have been discredited as verified.
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/apr/25/christopher-steele-admits-dossier-charge-unverifie/
https://www.realclearinvestigations.com/articles/2018/02/20/robert_mueller_continues_using_the_steele_dossier.html

Other than that, you're just back to saying that the IRS doesn't know what they're doing. What makes you think they would miss or ignore illegal activity?

-snip-

The problem with this is that it still gives no compelling reason to release the returns. Presidents find themselves under automatic audit, but previous presidents (since Nixon) have done it to give the illusion of transparency - it's a PR move, not an actual mechanism to ensure accountability. For Trump it is worse than worthless as a PR move, as I've argued in my previous posts, and publicizes an element of his personal life he would apparently prefer remained private. I have no illusions that he's mainly if not solely keeping it private so he can appear as rich as he claims to be rather than as rich as he is, wherever those two numbers may lie, but ultimately its his prerogative.

[Frumple]

The IRS is largely understaffed and underfunded. It's also known for having trouble handling higher rolling tax payers in particular. There's actually a great deal of reason to suspect they might miss or ignore illegal (or, more likely, dubiously legal they don't have the resources to pull apart) activity. So... yeah.

[MrRoboto75]

The only reason Trump holds his tax files is to hold the wizard-of-oz tier facade that he's somehow a successful and intelligent rich guy in spite of numerous bankruptcies, business failures, piss poor deal makings, regardless of most of his money coming from his father anyways.

Not that it would change the minds of any munchkins anyways, I'm sure its all the fault of the Wicked Witch of the Left.

[Frumple]

I have no illusions that he's mainly if not solely keeping it private so he can appear as rich as he claims to be rather than as rich as he is, wherever those two numbers may lie, but ultimately its his prerogative.

Ah, though. Sorta' missed it 'cause I feel like someone's trying to jam a rail spike through my eye socket, but. Not anymore it isn't. Congress has asked, and Congress will receive. Do or do not is no longer his (or mnuchin or whatever that is) choice, it's do or suck down congressional contempt charges and probably have copies seized anyway

[Dunamisdeos]

The only reason Trump holds his tax files is to hold the wizard-of-oz tier facade that he's somehow a successful and intelligent rich guy in spite of numerous bankruptcies, business failures, piss poor deal makings, regardless of most of his money coming from his father anyways.

Not that it would change the minds of any munchkins anyways, I'm sure its all the fault of the Wicked Witch of the Left.

Damn, son. That's not bad.

Anyway TLDR for me, the way I see we have lots of circumstantial evidence that he's doing shady stuff one way or another with taxes (see E-hat's post), but that does not constitute legal justification for congress flexing like this, but also really I think it's in everyone's best interests to know what's up with his taxes to the point where it's an exception.

[McTraveller]

...I as a voter am extremely interested as to whether he lied or not....

Eh, this doesn't interest me at all.  Every person on the planet has lied.  Moreover, every president has lied.  Why would lies about tax returns be any more or less onerous than any other presidential untruth?  I can't imagine that any business mogul with more than about $100 million has done anything that isn't "shady" on some level.

I would rather my tax dollars be spent by the the administration to focus on immigration, trade, health care, etc.  Why spend so many of my taxpayer dollars fretting over a tax return?  That's what I mean by it being a big distraction.  Hell, how many man-hours have we wasted talking about it here?

[Frumple]

A vanishingly small fraction of the amount of taxpayer money and taxfunded man hours pissed away so that trump can go golfing for the nth time.

I don't think it's a big distraction, though, as things go. Probably fairly small. Be even smaller if trump and co were worth a shit since it wouldn't be a thing to begin with, but hey, here we are.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

taxes don't pay for things