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[Frumple]

If it's not actually part of their presidential duties it's fairly free game, iirc, as a base. Though that might be more civil than criminal, memory's a little fuzzy at the mo'. Most of the rest of it boils down to "we haven't had a president stupid enough to piss off someone enough to force the country to provide an answer". So far, no president has fucked things up hard enough folks weren't willing to wait until they were out of office, and as far as I can recall none fucked bridges until they caught fire to the point folks were going to throw the book at them after rather than pardon or whatever. DoJ holds impeachment is the only recourse, iirc, but... again, no one's really tried. The question's pretty open.

Odds are pretty good we're going to have answers to some of those legal questions in the near future, assuming trump doesn't just keep over dead at some point. Maybe even then, I'unno

[Karnewarrior]

Tax Evasion could be used as a case for Impeachment, since the Meuller probe turned up nothing. It wouldn't exactly win the hearts and minds of the right, but I fear that nothing really will at this point. There's just too much paranoia and red scare casting the Democrats and anyone who works with them as traitors to Democracy and Freedom.

And personally I would consider it a valid reason. Why d'you get to run the government if you haven't paid in what you owe? Trump or no, you really should pay your fucking taxes, considering all the good shit that tax money pays for, like roads and food and probably most of our other infrastructure like the Internet in one fashion or another.

[Frumple]

Just about bloody anything can be used as grounds for impeachment, mind. The limtus test there is "whatever pisses off congress enough to do it."

... also we still don't have a fucking clue what the mueller (criminal, since his counterintelligence work is ongoing) probe turned up (though it damn well didn't turn up nothing, as per its three dozen+ indictments and already mutiple guilties). About all we've seen of it is barr's report and even barr's started walking that back as bullshit.

[LordBaal]

Put on spoilers as to no derail the current topic that much.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Which opinion have the average USA citizen about the Venezuelan situation? About Maduro and about a possible intervention here? Be it by doing something like in Panama, or a Irak on a smaller scale, or even by just providing "freedom fighters" with training and weapons (if you really don't learn of past mistakes)? Do most of you at least know were it is?

I mean, what democrats think, what republicans think. And tea party (is that still a thing) would think?

[Lord Shonus]

Put on spoilers as to no derail the current topic that much.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Which opinion have the average USA citizen about the Venezuelan situation? About Maduro and about a possible intervention here? Be it by doing something like in Panama, or a Irak on a smaller scale, or even by just providing "freedom fighters" with training and weapons (if you really don't learn of past mistakes)? Do most of you at least know were it is?

I mean, what democrats think, what republicans think. And tea party (is that still a thing) would think?

To be perfectly honest, it isn't getting that much play in the news here. CNN has brought it up in passing, but most of the "foreign" news time has been taken up by Europe and Asia.

[Frumple]

Last I noticed no one's really noticed or cares all that much, to be completely honest

The most I've seen is official support for... whoever that other guy is... and that's about it. We did cut off aid for some other folks in that general direction recently, though! Or trump tried or somethin', I'unno. South/Central America issues kinda' fundamentally just don't see air time in the US. Passing mention tends to be about it. I wouldn't put hope in hoping for US intervention, really. Especially not constructive intervention.

As for being able to locate it on a map... no. You'd be lucky if someone up here can accurately point to brazil, nevermind something smaller that isn't mexico.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

The average American is being not-so-gradually propagandized to support an invasion of Venezuela. Several members of Congress and Mike Pence have made public threats against both the Venezuelan government and people. Attempts were made to give """"""humanitarian aid"""""" to forces loyal to Guaido which proved a total clusterfuck. The CIA more or less admitted to trying to assassinate Maduro in a drone strike and are probably doing everything in their power to destroy Venezuela's electrical grid, since "we have to intervene because they don't have electricity" is the line the media keeps harping on.

The Republicans are all but openly calling for war, except in that way that Americans do where we're too good for war so it doesn't count. The Democrats are also calling for war but calling it humanitarian aid because they're either bought or else indelible fucking morons. The Tea Party Movement is long defunct as a faction of the Republicans, replaced wholesale by Trumpism.

Unfortunately there are almost no elected voices who take stances against imperialism, and haven't been for decades. It's not even a stance that public consciousness allows you to have, and is known only through the lens of right-wing propaganda against "hippies spitting on veterans coming home". Even what passes for the American left only has lukewarm takes "against regime change" but then calls for sending guns marked as humanitarian aid anyway.

[sluissa]

I don't think anyone is really interested in getting involved with Venezuela.

There might be some behind the scenes support for ousting Maduro. Trump has certainly made his opinion clear. But I don't expect there to be much support for anything overt.

On the other hand, Trump doesn't seem to care that much what does or does not have support, at least until after he's made his decision. Might say we're sending a fleet and then 12 hours later turn them around when he gets backlash.

Among the populace, I think there's almost universal war weariness after nearly 20 years in the middle east. There's also a bit of a fear that sticking our noses in anywhere is going to turn into a long term proposition we'll never get out of again.

My sympathies with what's happening there, but I wouldn't expect any effective unilateral help from the US. Now if NATO as a whole, or even a significant group of US allies decided to get involved... you might have something there... but again... Trump... it's hard to predict anything. But I'd expect much better political support for supporting allies rather than leading a charge.

[Trolldefender99]

I don't see an intervention in Venezuela being a very good thing. That would end up being a direct conflict with Russia who supposedly has landed troops there. Which is exactly what Republicans demoaned about Hillary Clinton and her no fly zone over Syria which would have lead to conflict with Russia cause they'd just ignore it so it be useless or war. Either way, its ironic that Republicans are now doing the same thing they complained about Hillary and want a conflict with Russia in Venezuela.

Granted, not related and I've posted some of this before... but the world does seem to be gearing up for some kind of large conflict. China in general is massively expanding, getting tons of allies, buying up tons of land/property and investing in tons of foreign industries, AND their abuse of the Muslims in their western part of the world (concentration camps_ doesn't lead to good things in the past. No one seems to really care about that last thing though, not left or right wing news talks about that much, just really barely at all. Which is surprising for news like CNN and NYtimes who I'd have hoped would make that massive news. But they mostly ignore it. But then again I'm thinking China is probably funding a TON of stuff people don't know about, and money talks. Not to mention China's massive expansion into the Ocean is seemingly like a local issue that can turn big. Right now nothing really has happened, but it takes one spark to light a fire.

A war with china though pretty much be a war with russia, seeing how closely allied (military anyway) they are. And a war with just china by itself doesn't pose good things even if they lost. Though their military advancements seem to be greatly outpacing the western world who are far more worried about societal issues than military ones. Which I imagine China is liking greatly, same with Russia.

That doesn't even include, if China lost, a huge part of the world relies on Chinese industry for so many products, goods and almost everything. Any war with China really would destroy the world economy that relies so heavily on China. And what happens to the huge amounts of properties, land, products, industries, companies that China and other companies in China have invested in? Which with all that...now there is a double edged sword right there.

But its sad China is really allowed their muslim concentration camps, and there is no protests or anything and barely a news article on it when it should be 24/7 news. But then in a world that relies on so much on China (at least for now), I guess its a slippery slope. But still, if that was happening in the west? There'd be calls for impeachment, civil war potentially, huge news 24/7 nonstop about it. But since its in China no one seems to care in the west. But that should be a huge humanitarian crises that should be made into bigger news. Not an occasional story about it and then nothing else.

[Folly]

Why d'you get to run the government if you haven't paid in what you owe? Trump or no, you really should pay your fucking taxes, considering all the good shit that tax money pays for, like roads and food and probably most of our other infrastructure like the Internet in one fashion or another.

My understanding(and I'm far from an expert) is that all of the major companies evade taxes; and if a company wants to be competitive and therefore successful, they have to sink as low as the competition.

[wierd]

That's because taxes evaded is literally pure profit.

Increased profitability makes the company look sexxier to investors, who then inject even more money into the company in exchange for dividends.


The ultimate failure is the unbridled and unrestrained greed of the system itself.  ANY means of increasing largess (in the scope of a board member or CEO's actions to greatly enrich their company, and increase shareholder value) *WILL* be undertaken, even if doing so has all kinds of collateral consequences.  As long as those consequences do not directly (or very visibly, at the very least) impact the investors driving the decision, the corporate decision makers will always favor that method of increasing such largess.


This is one of the reasons why "Holding board members and CEOs legally responsible for the fallout of the decisions they make in the greater environment" has been a talking point for the past 2 decades, with growing emphasis as the obviousness for the need for it becomes more and more prominent.


While it would almost certainly get abused horribly, I also toy with the notion of distributing "bad" among the shareholders themselves, as legal responsibility as well, especially when the shareholders vote for certain actions that are clearly deleterious.  I am just not sure how to implement it without it becoming a means to arrest people because of the actions of their investment brokers.  I just think that mitigating the urgency to undertake seriously damaging short-term profit seeking needs to happen at both ends of the decision matrix, and introducing intrinsic bads with the investment seems like it would work for the investor end, while risk of jail time would work on the boardroom end.

[Iduno]

Put on spoilers as to no derail the current topic that much.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Which opinion have the average USA citizen about the Venezuelan situation? About Maduro and about a possible intervention here? Be it by doing something like in Panama, or a Irak on a smaller scale, or even by just providing "freedom fighters" with training and weapons (if you really don't learn of past mistakes)? Do most of you at least know were it is?

I mean, what democrats think, what republicans think. And tea party (is that still a thing) would think?

I remember they had to make a special agreement during our government's shutdown to afford to be able to still do stuff like knock out the power (one example I remember them mentioning) for Venezuela.

[smjjames]

Why d'you get to run the government if you haven't paid in what you owe? Trump or no, you really should pay your fucking taxes, considering all the good shit that tax money pays for, like roads and food and probably most of our other infrastructure like the Internet in one fashion or another.

My understanding(and I'm far from an expert) is that all of the major companies evade taxes; and if a company wants to be competitive and therefore successful, they have to sink as low as the competition.

Yeah, but I don't think that's going to lead to impeachment. Doubt Trump is the only President to ever have fudged their taxes. If anything in there is going to lead to impeachment, it'd have to be something worse, like maybe money laundering or stuff that is far shadier that a reputable company wouldn't touch with a ten mile pole.

Put on spoilers as to no derail the current topic that much.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Which opinion have the average USA citizen about the Venezuelan situation? About Maduro and about a possible intervention here? Be it by doing something like in Panama, or a Irak on a smaller scale, or even by just providing "freedom fighters" with training and weapons (if you really don't learn of past mistakes)? Do most of you at least know were it is?

I mean, what democrats think, what republicans think. And tea party (is that still a thing) would think?

I remember they had to make a special agreement during our government's shutdown to afford to be able to still do stuff like knock out the power (one example I remember them mentioning) for Venezuela.

Which countries government shutdown? I don't remember anything like that for the US.

@LordBaal: As others said, it hasn't gotten all that much attention and war fatigue probably wouldn't be as much since it's practically our own backyard rather than half a world away.

[SalmonGod]

I've definitely seen a lot of talk about republicans wanting war in Venezuala.  In particular, Venezuala has been added to the republican lexicon of socialist boogeymen.  "If you want socialism, why don't you move to Cuba!" has now been replaced with Venezuala.  That's not a good sign, considering how we've treated Cuba.

I understand your sense of desperation, LordBaal.  I'm sure your thoughts are "anything would be better than this - give me some sign that change is coming - anything!"...... but the history of U.S. intervention in South America is death squads murdering hundreds of thousands of people to prop up brutal dictators under the guise of offering help while really providing none.  I hope for your sake that we stay out of it, because I don't believe that Republican intentions are any more benevolent today.

[smjjames]

Well, those were via the CIA rather than invading directly. No surprise that various Republicans are calling for war. Have to wonder how much of that is just rhetoric/chest thumping vs actual desire though.

Still, even if there aren't death squads and any of the other terrible shit that we have done in South America during the Cold War, I don't see a war with Venezuela going well. Not the war itself neccesarily, we can crush them easily (unless maybe they disappear into the jungles. Then it'd gonna become a mini Vietnam with fighting an attritionist insurgency), it's the aftermath that's going to be a problem because our track record on nation (re)building isn't great, especially in recent decades.

Plus, LordBaal, you're probably aware of how Trump has been treating Latin American countries and Puerto Rico (which is an American territory, but Trump would have you believe otherwise), I don't think you want someone like him anywhere near efforts to rebuild or whatever Venezuela.