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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4464070 times)

MrRoboto75

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #27915 on: February 04, 2019, 02:21:38 pm »

Our governors can only be pure of heart
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Loud Whispers

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #27916 on: February 04, 2019, 10:14:58 pm »

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/feb/01/young-adult-author-cancels-own-novel-after-race-controversy
Hmm. I am unsure how to respond; I am prejudiced against young adult novel authors, but I also despise those who use the banner of the oppressed to strike down the oppressed. Behind the obvious outrage of aspiring authors having their careers terminated by zealots out to protect them from their own ethnic oppression, there is an even more tiresome debate regarding whether authors should only write what they know. My opinion is clear; "write what you know" is advice, not dogma, but thoughts?

*edit
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Angry white people ruining the careers of poc over books they haven't read hmmmmm
« Last Edit: February 04, 2019, 10:21:56 pm by Loud Whispers »
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Max™

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #27917 on: February 05, 2019, 12:29:13 am »

Way I see it, outrage culture is as responsible for Trump as a bunch of inbred maga hat wearing chucklefucks, having a chunk of the liberals/left start sniping indiscriminantly at anything remotely "shitlord oppressor" shaped is something the rest of the left can't really defend, so of course it's going to be a great way to motivate people who already see the left as "on the wrong side" and  here we are.

Way to go sjw crowd, that'll teach whichever group you're all frothed up over that letting others know you've been wronged will result in a bunch of weird hipster douchebags out for blood, often unloading on someone who is definitely shitty, but totally unrelated to the relevant oppression that triggered the frenzy in the first place!
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Reelya

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #27918 on: February 05, 2019, 03:35:23 am »

A lot of the alt-right stuff does in fact pull directly from sjw terminology. You can delve down into for example men's rights language, and very little of it draws from traditionalist ideas, while much more of it draws from the same language and arguments that feminism uses.
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As far as the right goes, there are a number of basic contradictions in the identity-politics version of liberalism, and the alt-right is exploiting those weaknesses mercilessly to pull young recruits over to their side. For example, you can say you have black pride or asian pride, but never white pride, gay pride or trans pride, but never straight pride, and female pride but never male pride. Under this "pride system" almost everyone should be self-flagellating constantly since most people don't belong to many of the overlapping "pride allowed" groups. A philosophy that can reasonably be extrapolated to say "most people should hate themselves - because justice" shouldn't be very surprised when it has serious recruiting problems that are exploited by their opponents.

However, definitely the most interesting take on the movement is that the "Church of SJW*" acts more like a religion than a political ideology in many ways,
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« Last Edit: February 05, 2019, 10:10:10 am by Reelya »
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Trekkin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #27919 on: February 05, 2019, 07:46:27 am »

That's not a product of social justice so much as a product of Internet discourse, though.

You hear a lot of aphorisms about how 90% of the people in any given movement are morons, but I think that's overly reductive, like most things that focus on calling large groups of people stupid. It might be more accurate to say that anger is a powerful motivator of discourse, and two groups of people angry at each other for being angry with them will keep arguing long after all substantive discoure has concluded just by virtue of being self-reinforcing. We could therefore reasonably expect any group that's been around long enough, and been successful enough, to be full of such people. Eventually everybody's de facto message is "can you believe those stupid assholes who spend all their time talking about what stupid assholes we are", with an added "they should shut up and listen to us and especially me" because this is the Internet and everyone's in a constant state of information overload.

So, yeah, both sides in the feminist vs. MRA debate sound alike rhetorically, as do racial justice activists vs white supremacists -- and the same can be said of pro-life vs. pro-choice, liberals vs. conservatives, Marvel vs. DC and people with strong opinions about oatmeal raisin cookies. The important part is the "vs.", because that gives rise to all the noise about how everyone on the other side is an evil idiot whose opinions should be discarded out of hand.
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Kagus

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #27920 on: February 05, 2019, 08:13:21 am »

So, yeah, both sides in the feminist vs. MRA debate sound alike rhetorically, as do racial justice activists vs white supremacists -- and the same can be said of pro-life vs. pro-choice, liberals vs. conservatives, Marvel vs. DC and people with strong opinions about oatmeal raisin cookies. The important part is the "vs.", because that gives rise to all the noise about how everyone on the other side is an evil idiot whose opinions should be discarded out of hand.

You're starting to sound like one of those filthy Skubbers.

Loud Whispers

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #27921 on: February 05, 2019, 09:28:44 am »

So, yeah, both sides in the feminist vs. MRA debate sound alike rhetorically, as do racial justice activists vs white supremacists -- and the same can be said of pro-life vs. pro-choice, liberals vs. conservatives, Marvel vs. DC and people with strong opinions about oatmeal raisin cookies. The important part is the "vs.", because that gives rise to all the noise about how everyone on the other side is an evil idiot whose opinions should be discarded out of hand.

You're starting to sound like one of those filthy Skubbers.
Look at this dude, oh no nno NO NO NO he's anti-skub BAHAAAAAAAHAAAA skub only

Folly

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #27922 on: February 05, 2019, 09:56:14 am »

So, yeah, both sides in the feminist vs. MRA debate sound alike rhetorically, as do racial justice activists vs white supremacists -- and the same can be said of pro-life vs. pro-choice, liberals vs. conservatives, Marvel vs. DC and people with strong opinions about oatmeal raisin cookies. The important part is the "vs.", because that gives rise to all the noise about how everyone on the other side is an evil idiot whose opinions should be discarded out of hand.

In general, I take your point. However, this conversation started because a bunch of bigotry SJW's are literally demanding the dismantling of government over a 30-year-old picture of blackface that the governor was not actually in and had nothing to do with. These people really are idiots whose opinions should be discarded out of hand.
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Rolan7

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #27923 on: February 05, 2019, 10:16:41 am »

Expecting our representatives to account for things they've done is a crucial part of our government.  Why should they be free of controversy- not even criminal charges, merely controversy?  Because they are the government, in some sense, so any attack on their character is an attack on our government?  That's a very dangerous road.

It's possible, even likely that he wasn't involved with this incident.  But it's literally part of his job to handle PR issues, and convince people that he's worth voting for.  You know what would make this go away?  Having a record of actually representing black people.

Sure, there'd still be "bigotry SJW's" who wouldn't be convinced, just like there are literal white nationalists who are applauding right now.  There's no equivalency there, and neither group is actually relevant to this - They didn't create this scandal, and the Governor owes his people a convincing explanation.
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Reelya

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #27924 on: February 05, 2019, 10:17:58 am »

I got to thinking about the term "social justice" itself. It smacks me as kinda disingenuous in the same way that "pro-life" is. "pro-life" is insidious because it takes something everyone agrees with - life - and then sticks an extremely narrow political definition on it, with the implication that if you don't conform to the narrow definition, you're against life in general (I have much less of a problem with the implications of pro-choice as a term).

Social justice does the same thing. Literally everyone would claim they're for justice (except  tiny sliver of loonies), but some schmucks have come along with an extremely narrow and rigid ideology, claimed it is "justice" and that therefore anyone who disagrees is against justice itself, when in fact, many people dispute whether that thing even resembles "justice" in the first place.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2019, 10:27:12 am by Reelya »
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WealthyRadish

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #27925 on: February 05, 2019, 10:20:31 am »

something everyone agrees with - life -

Speak for yourself, buddy
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MrRoboto75

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Criptfeind

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #27928 on: February 05, 2019, 11:24:49 am »

Social justice does the same thing. Literally everyone would claim they're for justice (except  tiny sliver of loonies), but some schmucks have come along with an extremely narrow and rigid ideology, claimed it is "justice" and that therefore anyone who disagrees is against justice itself, when in fact, many people dispute whether that thing even resembles "justice" in the first place.

I mean, sure, but this isn't an issue with the term itself, but sounds to me like rather your issue with this sub group of people that use it.

And ultimately what's the answer? People label themselves negatively when they think they are doing a good thing? The reality is people are going to try to label themselves in some positive manner because most people think they are doing a positive thing. And I think that's reasonable.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2019, 11:26:56 am by Criptfeind »
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Starver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #27929 on: February 05, 2019, 11:56:56 am »

I first encountered "SJW" as a derogatory term against 'them, those that aren't us', like Feminazis, Pinkos, 'your actual literal' <quote>"Quote"</quote>Nazis<unquote>"Unquote"</unquote>, etc. Have I missed them reclaiming the term, or did I miss the original SJWs (like MRAs) who then found their name for themselves used as derision by the people they don't like against all the people the people who they don't like also don't like, even if they also don't like the people that the people they don't like and don't like them also don't like, because they're not actually alike in their not liking the people who the people they don't like don't like because they don't like the people like their own people and the people unalike their own people except that they also dislike the likable people who like to think they'd like anyone who didn't vehemently dislike the likes of them, like?


(Anyway, I tend to consider anyone blithely referring to SJWs as having stepped over a Godwinesque line. I'd be happy to include self-proclaiming SJWs in that, though I'm not sure where to put those referring to the self-proclaimed SJWs.)
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