Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Frumple]

The catchphrase I keep hearing today seems to be 'The grownups are all gone from the White House'. It seems that Mattis was viewed as the last responsible person capable of reigning in Trump.

With questionable accuracy, unfortunately. There hasn't really been much to substantiate the idea (that mattis was able and/or willing to reign in trump) from what I've noticed.

... that said, trump's favorability with the military, or at the absolute least the marines, is probably about to tank to some degree, yes. Which is a minor upshot, I guess.

[misko27]

I wonder who'll replace him. Then I stop wondering, because I'm sure it'll be someone whose credibility is exceeded only by their willingness to put the country over themselves (and that neither of those values are very high...).

Incidentally, it seems like we will indeed come to a shutdown, as Trump has hardened his position in response to his normal fanbase raging at him, and the House has passed a bill including the wall funding. Honestly I don't see an endgame for them on this if the Senate won't pass it. Democrats won't cave, not when Trump basically handed them the ability to pin literally everything on him. Time is completely on their side. January will come soon, Democrats will hold the House, and then where will they be? No wall, still a shutdown.

[PTTG??]

Also look PTTG I'm sorry I don't mean to make this into some personal thing, I just feel very strongly about it. Not trying to attack you for your opinions or beliefs, and obviously your motivation is to save lives I'm not trying to make you out to be the same as Bush or whatnot.

To me I feel like the idea that pulling out WON'T create another ISIS is the fantasy.

I'm willing to put this whole topic aside. I think we agree on much more than we disagree. The only thing I would add is that while pulling out will lead to a power vacuum, and that won't be good, I feel that there never will come a point where we can leave without creating a power vacuum. I exaggerate when I say we should stick it out for a week or two if that's all that's needed... but there is no gameplan that sees the US moving out of middle east within my lifetime. That, at least, cannot go on.

Nonetheless, your arguments are persuasive. Trump's retreat is clearly the product of a deranged mind, and not the sort of measured pullout that all but the most extreme pacifist would recommend.

[Dunamisdeos]

Thanks PTTG. Sorry that I let my emotions start talking for me, there. I came back and read my tone afterwards and was like oh... Hmm.

I think we agree more than not, as well. To be fair if someone put forth a plan that let us pull out and also maintain an acceptable level of confidence that ISIS 2.0 wouldn't be rearing up as a result, I would be 100% for it. That would be the ideal, but I also don't really expect that to happen.

I'm sort of worried about Mattis leaving, though. Some of my very-right-leaning friends are already trying to twist it as it totally not being a protest resignation but him just retiring, which is very clearly not the case by Mattis' own words. On one hand I am pleased to see less support for Trump, but also worried that it could the wrong people into a more extremist state of mind. I think Mattis brought a fair amount of legitimacy to Trump, and those supporters now have a choice between embracing Trump for his own sake or turning away.

[Folly]

Some of my very-right-leaning friends are already trying to twist it as it totally not being a protest resignation but him just retiring, which is very clearly not the case by Mattis' own words.

Just to clarify this point, Mattis was retired before he accepted this position. Now he is resigning due to disagreements with the administration, and will be returning to retirement after his resignation.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

For the record, Mattis was not at all an "adult in the room". He's the famous and traveled variant on your Punisher Skull Bumper Sticker crust uncle and has been agitating for war with Iran for years, only inhibited by knowing more than nothing about military theory and understanding that Iran could win a war against the US.

So who knows? SecDef Bolton, anyone? I, personally, cannot wait to participate in the draft riots.

[Trekkin]

So who knows? SecDef Bolton, anyone? I, personally, cannot wait to participate in the draft riots.

If we're speculating, I'd suggest Steven Miller is at least plausible for one reason: he's likely to be in Trump's line of sight when the vacancy is brought up, and Trump has, in his view, much bigger problems: apart from the welter of investigations already going on and the expected onslaught from the House next term, he's got Republicans freaking out about the shutdown and the stock market slump and now this worst-case-scenario Obamacare repeal on top of their existing worries about what's left of the GOP when Trumpism finally burns itself out. Worst of all, every day brings a new possibility of having to go through civil discovery and actually admit under penalty of perjury what a colossal fraud he is. There's no way Trump is focused enough not to reach for the quick and easy solution right now, and it worked with Mulvaney.

[smjjames]

Steven Miller? I don’t think he has any military experience at all. Probably wouldn’t be the first time the DoD was run by a civilian who wasn’t a decorated general, but how well did things go when it was run by someone with little military experience?

I’m expecting Trump to replace Mattis with someone he knows or thinks is a maximal loyalist and will be pretty much a yes man. Not that Mattis neccesarily was able to control Trump in the first place.

Also, if past practices are to go by, he’s going to try to get someone who has already been approved by the Senate or at least will be able to get through the Senate. The Republicans do have a slightly larger buffer now, but Senate confirmation still wouldn’t be easy given that there would still be picky warhawks since the DoD is one of the less politically polarized cabinet positions as Senate confirmations go.

[misko27]

We're at the point in the Administration where even someone who isn't sucessfully "the adult in the room" is at the very least keeping the seat occupied and preventing some far more active right-wing loon from taking it over.

Also, if past practices are to go by, he’s going to try to get someone who has already been approved by the Senate or at least will be able to get through the Senate. The Republicans do have a slightly larger buffer now, but Senate confirmation still wouldn’t be easy given that there would still be picky warhawks since the DoD is one of the less politically polarized cabinet positions as Senate confirmations go.

The warhawks are out for blood right now, most of them found out we were leaving Syria from the news. Even Trump's best friend Lindsey Graham is pissed.

[nenjin]

Nothing more terrifying than a Keebler Elf who feels betrayed. His cheeks ain't rosy because of cheer, he mad!

[smjjames]

We're at the point in the Administration where even someone who isn't sucessfully "the adult in the room" is at the very least keeping the seat occupied and preventing some far more active right-wing loon from taking it over.

Also, if past practices are to go by, he’s going to try to get someone who has already been approved by the Senate or at least will be able to get through the Senate. The Republicans do have a slightly larger buffer now, but Senate confirmation still wouldn’t be easy given that there would still be picky warhawks since the DoD is one of the less politically polarized cabinet positions as Senate confirmations go.

The warhawks are out for blood right now, most of them found out we were leaving Syria from the news. Even Trump's best friend Lindsey Graham is pissed.

The real problem is that Trump often doesn't listen to his advisors, even the most loyal right wing zealots. So, even if he manages to put in a loyalist mostly-yes-man who also makes the war hawks happy, the next time he does something which pisses them off, it'll be exactly that reason.

[misko27]

You misunderstand. I'm not saying he listens to them, I'm saying those positions sometimes have their own powers, which some of the self-proclaimed right-wing nutjobs will use more than their predecessors. That's what worries me.

[Dunamisdeos]

You misunderstand. I'm not saying he listens to them, I'm saying those positions sometimes have their own powers, which some of the self-proclaimed right-wing nutjobs will use more than their predecessors. That's what worries me.

I think this is what Mattis was well-liked for. It wasn't his position as adviser, but the way he wielded the power/responsibility of his position.

[misko27]

Speaking of responsibility and the lack thereof, we're looking at just under six hours till shutdown. There is currently no plan to avert it, though that's not stopping people from talking. They're claiming there might be a plan "to be released imminently", but I'll believe it when I see it.

[Gentlefish]

I work for a public university but I don't think this is affecting my paycheck since we're a state institution thankfully.

I'm curious to see how this is going to play out when people don't get their SNAP money at the start of the month.