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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4219900 times)

DFNewb

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #26415 on: December 08, 2018, 10:54:18 am »

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scriver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #26416 on: December 08, 2018, 11:01:18 am »

I believe that is a constitutional right of theirs
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Powder Miner

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #26417 on: December 08, 2018, 11:02:36 am »

I've been awake the whole night and have things to be doing later in the day so I hope you don't mind if my reply is largely unsourced. I'm going to lean off of memory and my classes a little.

Chinese warships have been playing chicken with United States vessels for a long time, but I'm not convinced that those two incidents you linked mean anything. The Chinese navy did, of course, not sink the vessels in either of the incidents you've listed but nor did they threaten to sink or fire upon the American vessel or plane if they continued further. This is important because it ties into the international relations concept of "cheap talk" -- you can saber rattle all you want and be threatening all you want but it means nothing if a credible commitment is not made, a promise of action on which political capital lies. China has not made a credible commitment in regards to American vessels in the South China Sea, it's just been as aggressively there as it can because it wants to send a message to the weaker nations that its presence is not gone.

Playing chicken with US vessels and trying to chase off US planes are not a cause of worry the way they are being conducted.

China is also not Argentina, it's true, but the US isn't the United Kingdom either. China pursues a rapid increase of technology with its navy, but it hasn't accomplished it and I doubt it will for at least a couple of decades -- their carrier, for example, is not particularly deployable and certainly doesn't have the same capacities that American ones do. For all the Chinese Navy works on fortification and missiles, they do not have the power projection that is actually necessary in order to prosecute a war, and the United States has a level of power projection capacity in sea and air that the British were never capable of.

The Chinese navy has lots of ships, but it doesn't have a lot of ships capable of actually launching a fleet level battle -- it has subs, some of them nuclear but really not that many. It has a lot of destroyers and frigates and corvettes, but very little larger than that. It has one active aircraft carrier of poor quality and another one it's working on, while the US has anywhere from 11-17 depending on how you're counting aircraft carriers. The Chinese Navy DOES have a technological gap to work on, and of course it's working on closing it, it has every reason to do so. But that doesn't mean that it's reached that gap, and it doesn't mean that it's about to soon, especially since it's not like the United States is sitting around doing no research.

China also has every reason to brag about its supposed ability to challenge the United States Navy because it actively will want other actors (including those within China!) to believe it can do so, because it will change the way they act about it. This gets repeated in articles like the ones you linked that claim the Chinese Navy as a serious contender to trouble the USN, which go off of Chinese military sites and Chinese political statements themselves; this does not actually mean that they possess this capacity. EVERYTHING in international relations happens for a reason, and this extends to the statements governments make and the way they make them. Is it a coincidence that that Chinese jet was spotted when Trump was meeting with Jinping? Is it coincidence that much of the meat of that NYT article comes from Chinese statement? It is not.

The Chinese Navy is not built to perform large scale, anti-fleet operations when you get down to its composition, and China spends a much, much smaller portion of its money on the navy than it could; this is because the Chinese do not WANT to perform large-scale, anti-fleet operations. The Chinese don't even right now want to build to the point of doing so. China knows that it would lose such a conflict, and because in addition to not being Argentina China is also not Nasser's Egypt they have been avoiding presenting a threat in concrete enough terms to actually spur action from the American military. China wants to be seen as capable of prosecuting a war by its neighbors and its politicians, China doesn't want to actually be capable enough of prosecuting a war to start one -- it is very much restrained in its military burden, economically, and I fully believe that China could manufacture a far more heavyweight navy than it has now.

But it would still have the technological disadvantage, it would still lose, and more importantly it would take a lot of damage to its economy and a lot of damage to its overall international strategy that would far outweigh whatever deterrence it would hope to get from a conflict over the South China Sea. The PRC is trying NOT to become a pariah state, it is trying to form a stable sphere of influence internationally and primarily through economic means, like the actions it is taking in Africa. That's why its alleged military strength comes out mostly in words and is a public presentation rather than an actual gathering of naval forces like the kind that starts unintended wars like the Six Day War. China has more to gain from talking about the South China Sea and appearing interested in engaged than it actually does from committing to driving the US off, and it certainly has much less to lose. China also knows this.
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #26418 on: December 08, 2018, 11:56:52 am »

ANTIFA now walking around cities wearing guns.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieFJUwxAEY4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xy4QyvXWiq0

And jumping rando gay Asians that are holding a camera in their vicinity, apparently. Heroes, all.

A "Difficult position" indeed. Excuse my bitter cynicism but I can't wait to hear the internet start talking about how these indiscriminate AK-wielding self-styled paramilitary groups that jump people they don't understand are different from the right-leaning ones and therefore excused.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2018, 12:13:42 pm by Dunamisdeos »
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DFNewb

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #26419 on: December 08, 2018, 11:59:26 am »

ANTIFA now walking around cities wearing guns.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieFJUwxAEY4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xy4QyvXWiq0

And jumping rando gay Asians that are holding a camera in their vicinity, apparently. Heroes, all.

A "Difficult position" indeed.


The ones who go around shutting down other people's speech are the Fascists, always remember that. ANTIFA is funny cause they Fascist yet call others who they shut down Fascist. The cognitive dissonance is strong with them.
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misko27

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #26420 on: December 09, 2018, 01:11:17 am »

Well, as long as the guns are legal, so I don't see the problem.

Actually no I do see a problem, but since my position of "letting civilians do whatever they bloody well please with guns has some serious damn drawbacks" isn't recognized by US law, the very least that can be done is that be happy that both sides have them.
I believe that is a constitutional right of theirs
Indeed. 2nd Amendment doesn't stop just because you don't like the militia in question.
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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #26421 on: December 09, 2018, 02:30:20 am »

I can't find any mention of Andy Ngo's so-called attack except in far-right blogs. He was covering a "Him Too" rally, which seeks to discredit sexual assault victims, and claims antifa counter-protesters targeted him.

Considering the lies the alt-right puts out on a daily basis, I need more evidence to prove that it even happened.
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Reelya

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #26422 on: December 09, 2018, 03:02:26 am »

I can't find any mention of Andy Ngo's so-called attack except in far-right blogs. He was covering a "Him Too" rally, which seeks to discredit sexual assault victims, and claims antifa counter-protesters targeted him.

Considering the lies the alt-right puts out on a daily basis, I need more evidence to prove that it even happened.

Quote
“#himtoo” references supporting men accused of sexual violence without proof.

Eh, if it was something about supporting male victims of sexual assault it would be a totally different thing, but I guess that doesn't fit with these far-right guys worldview.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2018, 03:04:35 am by Reelya »
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #26423 on: December 09, 2018, 03:10:40 am »

It doesnt fit well with many in the far left either.

While there is a strong urge to deny (backfire effect ho!), there really is a strongly opinionated segment of the left that feels that female sexual aggressors are a fantasy, and that sexual aggressors are always (or if they concede some, "mostly") male.

Never mind that actual investigation shows it happens with about equal incidence rate, and that male victims have a more difficult time coming forward about it due to social pressures than female victims, and often get less justice.


To me, the answer is obvious.  The incidence rate is about equal for both genders, so the conception of appending gender to the issue is nonsense.  Sexual aggression is abhorrent, no matter who does it; Victims need support and justice, no matter what parts they have.

The notion that women are more vulnerable is not supported by the numbers, and appears to be an artifact of the 'pedestal era'.  #metoo should not be a female-only thing. 

/honest opinion
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EnigmaticHat

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #26424 on: December 09, 2018, 03:19:50 am »

ANTIFA now walking around cities wearing guns.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieFJUwxAEY4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xy4QyvXWiq0

And jumping rando gay Asians that are holding a camera in their vicinity, apparently. Heroes, all.

A "Difficult position" indeed.


The ones who go around shutting down other people's speech are the Fascists, always remember that. ANTIFA is funny cause they Fascist yet call others who they shut down Fascist. The cognitive dissonance is strong with them.
Remember everyone, people who hate fascism are the real fascists.  Also dailywire is a tabloid (or whatever the online version of that is) and the only concrete damages quoted by the Hill article are 6 arrests, and it doesn't specify who was arrested.

The internet is full of claims that Antifa is murdering people and destroying property.  If you try to do your own research all you're going to find is glorified blogs (like Brietbart) and youtube videos so short you can't tell what's going on unless the poster tells you.  Remember, Antifa has already been the target of a terrorist attack, so unless you can prove that they've done more damage than 28 hospital bills and a funeral, imma say by both bodycount and dollar value they've suffered more than they've harmed.

And if you're uncomfortable about the times that they've showed up in army camo and AR 15s... that's how liberals feel all the time.  We learned to live with it and so can you.  Don't want anarchists to have guns, support gun control.
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scriver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #26425 on: December 09, 2018, 03:25:42 am »

Beware, you who quote Nietzsche, so you do not yourself become the quote
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #26426 on: December 09, 2018, 03:26:42 am »

The danger with the fascist, is not that he owns the gun.

The danger with the fascist, is that he runs the government, and you have no means to oppose him.


Democracy is supposed to be self-regulating, in that the populace determines the people in government via their votes.
The modern reality in the US is that the public is given a false-choice at election time. All candidates are artificially selected by financial pressures and interest groups, driving the cost of candidacy into the stratosphere.  The only contenders are those with lots of capital thrown at them by interest groups.  Like fascists.  Thus, the reality is that the government is not selected by the public, but by the interest groups.

Guns are just a catalytic agent.  Gasoline on a fire.  The gasoline does not cause the fire; it only makes it burn hotter and brighter.   If you want to put the fire out, you have to fix the system so that PACs and super-PACs are no longer a thing, and put in multi-party coalition government rules similar to seen in Europe, so that democratic processes rule again. After that, the gun issue becomes less troublesome, because people no longer feel so desperate that they must use physical violence to bring their grievances to attention.

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Starver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #26427 on: December 09, 2018, 07:25:49 am »

Eh, if it was something about supporting male victims of sexual assault it would be a totally different thing, but I guess that doesn't fit with these far-right guys worldview.
The Incels complain that they aren't being 'assaulted' enough, of course.
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JoshuaFH

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #26428 on: December 09, 2018, 07:48:48 am »

Eh, if it was something about supporting male victims of sexual assault it would be a totally different thing, but I guess that doesn't fit with these far-right guys worldview.
The Incels complain that they aren't being 'assaulted' enough, of course.

If we want true gender equality, we have to assault the men just as much as the women.
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Teneb

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #26429 on: December 09, 2018, 08:27:28 am »

Eh, if it was something about supporting male victims of sexual assault it would be a totally different thing, but I guess that doesn't fit with these far-right guys worldview.
The Incels complain that they aren't being 'assaulted' enough, of course.
If we want true gender equality, we have to assault the men just as much as the women.
Which is to say, a total assault number of 0.
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