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[SalmonGod]

China has the obvious reason of the government having an iron fist on things.

China's currently engaged in a massive state-sponsored ethnic cleansing.

I've heard of them doing mass re-education programs and concentration camps, yes, but so far as 'sending them to the gas chambers', no.

I don't know much about it.  Only heard in passing that it's going on.  Doing a little bit of reading at a glance, it's everything possible stopping just short of gas chambers.  Thousands killed and disappeared, many times more imprisoned, and active criminalization and eradication of cultural symbols and practices.  I don't know what else you'd call it.

So yeah... pretty much carrying out the racially charged nationalist's wet dream.

There may not be precedent on the environment front in regards to rioting (that I can recall right now or have the time to look for), but I've made plenty of argument in the past that it has its place.  Plenty of rights we take for granted would not exist without it.

One example worth looking at is the Stonewall Riots, because bay12ers have brought that up as a "successful" riot before.

But in that case, I'd argue that the riots did not do anything directly to get society to change, it was the pride marches and civic organizations that sprung up in the aftermath of the riots that enacted change. The peaceful / non-violent actions were what changed society, the riots just brought gay people together and talking. if you just keep rioting, society just decides that you are monsters, and that dealing with you is like acceding with terrorists. You have to win hearts. Things like smashing all the Starbucks storefronts during a G20 summit do fuck all.

Try pretty much every labor right we enjoy, such as the standard 40-hour work week.  I also hold that the civil rights movement would not have been successful without the implicit threat of violence.  The still-dominant culture knew they had to give in, so they chose to write history crediting non-violent protest as they did so.

[Starver]

American troops drank all of Reykjavik's beer in one weekend. The beer is now all gone

Beer does not disappear. It just... changes state. Unless it's Fosters, in which case it's already in that state but chilled.

[Rolan7]

China has the obvious reason of the government having an iron fist on things.

China's currently engaged in a massive state-sponsored ethnic cleansing.

I've heard of them doing mass re-education programs and concentration camps, yes, but so far as 'sending them to the gas chambers', no.

They're probably not doing literal gas chambers, no.

They are disappearing dissidents (we know this for a fact) AND filtering all web access, which should remove all benefit of the doubt in my opinion.

[Loud Whispers]

American troops drank all of Reykjavik's beer in one weekend. The beer is now all gone

Beer does not disappear. It just... changes state. Unless it's Fosters, in which case it's already in that state but chilled.

Ah, the first law of beermodynamics

[Rolan7]

Look, beer isn't rum.  It isn't gone without a reason.

[Reelya]

Now, Iceland is down to that one bottle of Advocaat they've had sitting on the top shelf for 5 years.

[redwallzyl]

With China just imagine a larger scale version of what America did to it's natives.

[misko27]

It's not marches or protests, it's committed, long-term activism (which may involve marches and protests, but marches have to be more than a flash in the pan). It's joining things, and volunteering; and volunteering hours as much as dollars. Writing a check only goes so far, and it's done a lot to turn our politics into one of professional influence groups. I mean we're all very politically involved people here: how many have worked for a campaign? Or gone door to door doing stuff? Or joined political organized anything?

SalmonGod's point is well taken: it's very difficult to join things if no one around you wants to join things. A committee of one is no committee at all (amusing exception: I attended a democratic club meeting a few weeks ago, and the "transit subcommittee" - which was precisely one person - presented their findings. As it turns out, transit is something everyone in NYC cares about, and the subcommittee swelled from one member to eight. But again, this is in a room full of people already volunteering their time for things). But amusing anecdotes aside, you can't act collectively if people around you don't. Organization by definition requires a multitude. So what are we to do? Send another check? There must be solutions, but I don't see them...

Try pretty much every labor right we enjoy, such as the standard 40-hour work week.

And that reminds me: Labor was able to organize despite having, objectively, far less time than we do today. They'd be more tired and less able to devote themselves to "trivial" pursuits such as unionization. Yet they did so. And you could say "well, unionization is much harder nowadays due to laws against them", but given what laws existed against unions in the age they became active and thrived, I'm not sure if that argument holds much water.

There is some sort of block on collective political organization in America, and i just don't know what or why.

[Reelya]

With China just imagine a larger scale version of what America did to it's natives.

I'm not sure if racist nationalism is the exact comparison for China's activities, because the dynamics and rationale are different. The Chinese don't care about people's purity of DNA they care about belief systems, hence the term "re-education camps". They did the same thing to their own race with the whole Falun Gung thing. The Uyghur thing is just directly copied from that.

What the Chinese want is forced assimilation, whereas the western racists want forced segregation. China's policies go back to the USSR, where you blend in, or else. Whereas Nazi Germany was in fact obsessed with rooting out people who were blending in (Jewish or other non-Aryan descent).

[RedKing]

Speaking of the nationalism, I wonder how come we aren't seeing similar in Africa and Asia? China has the obvious reason of the government having an iron fist on things.

edit: Actually, Japan is undergoing a bit of an uptick in nationalism, not quite on the same level or direction as 'The West'.

China, the Phillippines, Japan, India, South Africa, Myanmar. Just to name a few.


If I get around to it, we can have an in-depth discussion of the Uighur crisis in the Eastasia thread. It's....complicated.

[smjjames]

Speaking of the nationalism, I wonder how come we aren't seeing similar in Africa and Asia? China has the obvious reason of the government having an iron fist on things.

edit: Actually, Japan is undergoing a bit of an uptick in nationalism, not quite on the same level or direction as 'The West'.

China, the Phillippines, Japan, India, South Africa, Myanmar. Just to name a few.

You have a point on the Phillippines and India while China has always had that nationalistic bent.

[SalmonGod]

Try pretty much every labor right we enjoy, such as the standard 40-hour work week.

And that reminds me: Labor was able to organize despite having, objectively, far less time than we do today. They'd be more tired and less able to devote themselves to "trivial" pursuits such as unionization. Yet they did so. And you could say "well, unionization is much harder nowadays due to laws against them", but given what laws existed against unions in the age they became active and thrived, I'm not sure if that argument holds much water.

There is some sort of block on collective political organization in America, and i just don't know what or why.

I have a few observations here:

• Our culture is more isolating.  Society of the spectacle and fear culture.
• Society is more complex.  Our legal systems more intricate.  Organizational hierarchies are taller.  Thicker procedural armor for establishment.
• Many workers face intense micro-management in their daily lives.  Key loggers, step counters, and open office spaces that resemble reverse panopticon prisons.  Amazon's working on outfitting workers with devices that track their location and alert them if an employee lingers too long in one spot or moves counter to their direction.
  
• Law enforcement apparatus is more overwhelming.  You may not have bayonet lines charging on union strikes.  But it's replaced by overwhelming numbers and organizational strength, sophisticated applications of force that aren't as susceptible to invoking public outrage, mass surveillance, etc.
• Public relations/propaganda has advanced IMMENSELY since those days.
• The sheer noise of everyone having a voice, and our digital filtering systems being incredibly dysfunctional.  It's much more difficult to figure out who to believe, and where to look for initiative and leadership.

I admit that some of the fault probably lies with me and us.  Maybe I'm too distracted.  I could find the time if I gave up the time I give up sleep to have for myself.  I'm technically on work hours right now.  I could probably find a more constructive use for blowing off work than posting on this forum.  But I'm not doing so because made a conscious decision to set aside X amount of my should-be work hours to post here.  I'm just being distracted and impulsive.

But you nailed it that I don't feel like I'm of any consequence if no one's with me.  And everywhere around me, I mostly see people who are too scared and/or confused and/or ignorant to do anything that makes sense.  I'm motivated to take greater risks to make a difference, but it's not worth it alone.

[RedKing]

Speaking of the nationalism, I wonder how come we aren't seeing similar in Africa and Asia? China has the obvious reason of the government having an iron fist on things.

edit: Actually, Japan is undergoing a bit of an uptick in nationalism, not quite on the same level or direction as 'The West'.

China, the Phillippines, Japan, India, South Africa, Myanmar. Just to name a few.

You have a point on the Phillippines and India while China has always had that nationalistic bent.

Not really. The fenqing phenomenon didn't really get started in the mainland until the latter 1990's. And it was generally held to acceptable levels by Beijing, who would even crack down on it when it got out of hand (like busting up Japanese-owned shops during a spat with Japan, or trashing McDonald's after the bombing of the Chinese embassy in Belgrade in 1999). Now, Xi seems willing to let things go even further, and they feel like less of an angry fringe and more of a mainstream faction of discourse.

I'm a Sinophile, but I have serious concerns for the direction the PRC is headed -- socially, politically, and economically.

[SalmonGod]

This is the 'last generation' that can save nature, WWF says

Global wildlife populations have fallen by 60% in just over four decades

Also relevant to the previous bit about participation problems with democracy

[Folly]

While I strongly dislike Trump's racially biased reasoning for challenging the birthright to citizenship, I find that I actually agree with the idea.
The piece of land a person is born on has absolutely no influence on who they become as a person, and should never be used as reasoning for what rights they are or are not entitled to. This is an archaic rule with illogical reasoning, and by all rights it should be abolished or at the very least altered.