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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4444576 times)

Telgin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24840 on: October 30, 2018, 08:01:04 pm »

I mean, I guess there's always absentee voting, but I was just hearing on the radio about how that's a lot more complicated than one would think.  Including getting people to witness your ballot??  Ugh.

Yeah, see my post earlier about how SC handles it.  First, you can't get one without a good reason.  Second, you have to fill out an online form, which is given to you in XDP format (a weird new PDF format that only new versions of Adobe Reader can read).  You must then print that out and mail it to your voting precinct, who will then mail you back the actual ballot.  Said ballot comes with four sheets of paper, including one telling you all of the details on how to fill out the form, else it won't be counted.  If someone other than you drops it off, they must fill out a second form and sign it.  You must have someone witness your ballot either way.
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Reelya

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24841 on: October 30, 2018, 08:25:12 pm »

What else can I do?

Knock on doors. Stuff envelopes. Call phones. Donate if it's feasible for you. Run for something local if you've got the resources. Just talk to people, if that's all you have time for. Be (nonviolently) belligerent when people are being bigoted assholes, if that's a risk you're willing to take.

Between violence and nothing there's a whole national apparatus to rebuild. It's surprisingly fun, too.

Yep. Look at the tactics used by Astroturf front groups. They didn't come up with those tactics, they were copied from thr 1960s green groups who got the Clean Air Act passed, and the Clean Water Act passed. And rioting didn't achieve that. One of the most effective methods was in fact letter writing campaigns to incumbent politicians, because as much as they like corporate donations, they need voters to vote for them. Notice that "street riots" isn't quite in the Astroturf playbook.

rioting can potentially stall legislation that's in the pipeline, it cannot generate new legislation. Nobody is going to author entire new bills protecting the environment because there are rioters.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2018, 08:27:29 pm by Reelya »
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RedKing

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24842 on: October 30, 2018, 08:26:49 pm »

So, if you folks haven't caught up with the buzz surrounding a supergenius who was plotting to set Mueller up with a sexual assault claim... but he was literally hoisted by his own retard: https://twitter.com/JaneMayerNYer/status/1057371849439502338

Enjoy the giggles!
Oh man. Jacob Wohl is such an insufferable prick. It's a thing of beauty to see this.
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Trekkin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24843 on: October 30, 2018, 08:53:51 pm »

One of the most effective methods was in fact letter writing campaigns to incumbent politicians, because as much as they like corporate donations, they need voters to vote for them.

Visiting your elected representatives works really well too, although it is a massive inconvenience, and not only for cynical reasons; even the most idealistic politician can't work to do things for you they don't know you want done, and on a national level these people have hundreds of thousands of voters to keep track of at minimum and very few reliable ways to accurately gauge what they want most urgently and how they want it -- and that matters long before Act XYZ is up for a vote and suddenly the phones melt. Polls are really blunt instruments here and social media's noisy. Actual voters taking the time to reach out are golden. Just also anecdotal, so don't expect them to drop everything.

I've known the people on the other end of those phones. They're not monsters, mostly. They just live in a loud world, and if you just silently write them off there are plenty of people waiting to fill in the gap. (Shouting at them doesn't work either, by the way.)
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Starver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24844 on: October 30, 2018, 08:55:47 pm »

Sorta unrelated, but I was wondering why most people wait until election day instead of voting early.  It's so much less crowded, it's literally a lot easier.  I guess in case new information comes out at the last minute?  I'm not sure that's a good reason...
Not (except maybe in the case of postal votes, overridden by a physical ballot on the day) being somewhere where ahead-of-time voting is much of a thing, I would imagine that being for a given position and then being swung by a late-breaking story (either of something new, or debunking the older thing that had formed the early opinion) would be demoralising.

But then a lot of the Damnyankee polling infrastructure makes little sense to me, over here in Limeyland. I don't pretend to know the ins and outs of what you can perhaps do to recast early votes nearer/on the final day, to make it not an unattractively irrevocable option to vote early.
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SalmonGod

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24845 on: October 30, 2018, 09:39:59 pm »

Knock on doors. Stuff envelopes. Call phones. Donate if it's feasible for you. Run for something local if you've got the resources. Just talk to people, if that's all you have time for. Be (nonviolently) belligerent when people are being bigoted assholes, if that's a risk you're willing to take.

I admit, there is much more stuff like this I could do.  And I want to.  But it's difficult when I'm working 60-80 hours a week and have a family that wants attention, too.  And home life issues that generally make me want to avoid public attention.  Not to mention fear of persecution at work due to fox news crazy conservative bosses, whom I have witnessed bullying other co-workers over political beliefs.

I have written representatives before, and received what seemed like canned responses.  So was never sure if the stuff was actually read.

In other words: get out the vote. The essence of the democratic process. That's the only moral and ethical way to approach this. The whole "we need to burn these fuckers out" is exactly the same anti-democratic ideal the worst elements of the Right get attacked for.....just with a heavy dose of moral outrage from the Left.

And without the ability to get involved in the organization, outreach, and primary parts of the election process, voting amounts to picking from a list of options that were chosen for me.  I posted the other day about my ballot.  There may be places where there is more to fight for on the ballot, but there isn't much of consequence on mine.

Basically if you're legitimately advocating violence, you've already lost the game. We've all already lost the game, at that point. The savvier, more patient elements of the far Right have realized their best strategy is to say something just offensive enough, and watch people on the Left dig their own hole and jump in it.

You do realize you're saying this at a time when the current hot topic is actual violence from the right-wing, yeah?  Mass murder with the implicit approval of our top leaders?  They never stopped advocating.  They moved beyond.  And they haven't "lost the game" for it, yet.  They might still.  But I maintain that this point feels like a huge disconnect with current reality.

Edit:  And many of the people you are denigrating for their aggressive stance on politics have literally faced danger physically on their doorstep in recent times.  Someone already mentioned the voter suppression of native americans in North Dakota.  This hot on the heels of facing blatant human rights violations and breaking of international treaties at Standing Rock.  This isn't some foreign policy issue.  This is inside our own country.  My state's police forces participated in that.  We are literally at that point, whether it's happening to you personally or not.

Yep. Look at the tactics used by Astroturf front groups. They didn't come up with those tactics, they were copied from thr 1960s green groups who got the Clean Air Act passed, and the Clean Water Act passed. And rioting didn't achieve that. One of the most effective methods was in fact letter writing campaigns to incumbent politicians, because as much as they like corporate donations, they need voters to vote for them. Notice that "street riots" isn't quite in the Astroturf playbook.

rioting can potentially stall legislation that's in the pipeline, it cannot generate new legislation. Nobody is going to author entire new bills protecting the environment because there are rioters.

There may not be precedent on the environment front in regards to rioting (that I can recall right now or have the time to look for), but I've made plenty of argument in the past that it has its place.  Plenty of rights we take for granted would not exist without it.  Plus, you're invoking a period in history when regulation of business wasn't the political taboo that it is today, due to the great depression and the gilded age being fresh in memory at the time.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2018, 09:47:06 pm by SalmonGod »
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PTTG??

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24846 on: October 30, 2018, 09:49:50 pm »

You can protest, that's your democratic right. But people aren't saying they're gonna protest. They're using the same violent language they pillory the other side for using.

It's all bluster. On both sides. When there is something worth taking to the streets about and practicing civil disobedience, I'll be ready to do that. But no one is saying they're doing that. They're just venting their anger to the ether and using vaguely (and not so vaguely) threatening language to back it up. I want to put as much distance between myself and those folks as I do between myself and rabid Trump supporters.

Because honestly, nothing has crystallized out of the new aggressive Left mentality. Nothing. People talk like they're "at war" but what are they doing? Nothing. They're shouting from the sidelines just like everyone else, and trying to badger people on their own side of the spectrum into getting as hostile and aggressive as they are. While accomplishing exactly nothing.

So let me know how that pans out for you.

The last time nationalism was so prominent on the international stage, staying neutral wasn't an option.
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sluissa

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24847 on: October 30, 2018, 09:55:12 pm »

Tell that to Switzerland
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24848 on: October 30, 2018, 09:57:51 pm »

You can protest, that's your democratic right. But people aren't saying they're gonna protest. They're using the same violent language they pillory the other side for using.

It's all bluster. On both sides. When there is something worth taking to the streets about and practicing civil disobedience, I'll be ready to do that. But no one is saying they're doing that. They're just venting their anger to the ether and using vaguely (and not so vaguely) threatening language to back it up. I want to put as much distance between myself and those folks as I do between myself and rabid Trump supporters.

Because honestly, nothing has crystallized out of the new aggressive Left mentality. Nothing. People talk like they're "at war" but what are they doing? Nothing. They're shouting from the sidelines just like everyone else, and trying to badger people on their own side of the spectrum into getting as hostile and aggressive as they are. While accomplishing exactly nothing.

So let me know how that pans out for you.

The last time nationalism was so prominent on the international stage, staying neutral wasn't an option.

Except people did end up staying neutral until it was no longer an option. I assume you're referring to the 1930s.

The big difference though is that the US wasn't undergoing the same throes of nationalism as we are now. Yes, the undercurrents were there, and so far, none of the nationalists have dreams of global conquest.

Tell that to Switzerland

Switzerland is kind of a special case.

Speaking of the nationalism, I wonder how come we aren't seeing similar in Africa and Asia? China has the obvious reason of the government having an iron fist on things.

edit: Actually, Japan is undergoing a bit of an uptick in nationalism, not quite on the same level or direction as 'The West'.
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SalmonGod

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24849 on: October 30, 2018, 10:03:53 pm »

China has the obvious reason of the government having an iron fist on things.

China's currently engaged in a massive state-sponsored ethnic cleansing.
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Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

sluissa

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24850 on: October 30, 2018, 10:06:45 pm »

Many countries in those areas already have strong leader governments in place with the power so they don't need popular support that nationalism drums up. Don't need the people if you have the military/police/food supply.
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redwallzyl

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24851 on: October 30, 2018, 10:08:20 pm »

China has the obvious reason of the government having an iron fist on things.

China's currently engaged in a massive state-sponsored ethnic cleansing.
China has always done stuff like that.
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24852 on: October 30, 2018, 10:09:56 pm »

China has the obvious reason of the government having an iron fist on things.

China's currently engaged in a massive state-sponsored ethnic cleansing.

I've heard of them doing mass re-education programs and concentration camps, yes, but so far as 'sending them to the gas chambers', no.

China has the obvious reason of the government having an iron fist on things.

China's currently engaged in a massive state-sponsored ethnic cleansing.
China has always done stuff like that.

China's always been pretty nationalistic as well.
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Reelya

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24853 on: October 30, 2018, 10:14:10 pm »


There may not be precedent on the environment front in regards to rioting (that I can recall right now or have the time to look for), but I've made plenty of argument in the past that it has its place.  Plenty of rights we take for granted would not exist without it.

One example worth looking at is the Stonewall Riots, because bay12ers have brought that up as a "successful" riot before.

But in that case, I'd argue that the riots did not do anything directly to get society to change, it was the pride marches and civic organizations that sprung up in the aftermath of the riots that enacted change. The peaceful / non-violent actions were what changed society, the riots just brought gay people together and talking. if you just keep rioting, society just decides that you are monsters, and that dealing with you is like acceding with terrorists. You have to win hearts. You don't see gay people smashing up churches in the name of Marriage Equality for example, because that would just make everyone hate you and let the christian right say "see? they're evil monsters".

Things like smashing all the Starbucks storefronts during a G20 summit do fuck all. All that does is give the authoritarians more leeway to pass draconian laws, with full support of the alarmed populace.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2018, 10:19:56 pm by Reelya »
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Loud Whispers

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