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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4444800 times)

smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24765 on: October 29, 2018, 11:16:21 am »

Would you please drop this inane and pointless chatter and move onto the even less sane subject we discuss here?

Yes, semantic arguments tend to not actually end.
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Kagus

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24766 on: October 29, 2018, 11:23:10 am »

Would you please drop this inane and pointless chatter and move onto the even less sane subject we discuss here?

Yes, semantic arguments tend to not actually end.

That's a matter of opinion.

wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24767 on: October 29, 2018, 11:27:55 am »

No, it is very much true.  Especially of language semantics.  There is nearly an infinite capacity to quibble.  I *ALSO* tire of this derail. As far as I can tell, the only reason to sustain it, is because of individuals who cannot let it go.

I would rather let it go myself; I only continue to engage because of negging with strawmen, which I cannot abide.  If others will likewise agree to discontinue bringing it up, I will likewise comply, with great relief.
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Egan_BW

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24768 on: October 29, 2018, 11:30:42 am »

So you want to drop it, but are determined to "win" first.
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24769 on: October 29, 2018, 11:31:33 am »

Not exactly.  I am determined to not be painted with the ridicule brush. (Specifically, when that action involves the use of blatant falsehoods.)

Reaching the truth of an argument is not the same as "winning."
« Last Edit: October 29, 2018, 11:33:28 am by wierd »
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24770 on: October 29, 2018, 11:33:23 am »

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Egan_BW

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24771 on: October 29, 2018, 11:34:24 am »

Not exactly.  I am determined to not be painted with the ridicule brush. (Specifically, when that action involves the use of blatant falsehoods.)

Reaching the truth of an argument is not the same as "winning."
If this is the case, all you have to do is point out the fallacy as laconically as possible, then move on. Talk to the person in PMs if you must.
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24772 on: October 29, 2018, 11:36:58 am »

Not exactly.  I am determined to not be painted with the ridicule brush. (Specifically, when that action involves the use of blatant falsehoods.)

Reaching the truth of an argument is not the same as "winning."
If this is the case, all you have to do is point out the fallacy as laconically as possible, then move on. Talk to the person in PMs if you must.

I DID.  They persisted.

Again, I would like to drop this.  Please stop bringing it up.

ON TOPIC:

Issues of rampant voter polarization aside, areas with a strong capacity to swing are really just indicators of areas where discourse is functional; People can vote one way in one election, then the other in another, based on performance of the candidates policies, rather than their party affiliation. (Ideally, ALL regions would be swing regions, as all voters would engage in detailed analysis of their candidate options, and vote accordingly-- not according to partisanship.)

Any reasonable discussion would thus require indepth analysis of the individual politics of the regions in question, and how they interrelate with the politics of the major candidates.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2018, 11:50:46 am by wierd »
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Doomblade187

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24773 on: October 29, 2018, 12:07:01 pm »

Meanwhile, Brian Kemp is still the secretary of state in Georgia, and is only going to fix the voting machines after the election he's running in fir governor. For the record, they're basically old, un-auditable, and occasionally malfunction and switch votes.
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Zangi

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24774 on: October 29, 2018, 12:16:18 pm »

Meanwhile, Brian Kemp is still the secretary of state in Georgia, and is only going to fix the voting machines after the election he's running in fir governor. For the record, they're basically old, un-auditable, and occasionally malfunction and switch votes.
Reckon the fine upstanding people who decided to delete whatever voting records, for 'routine' reasons, after a lawsuit filed over it, know for a fact that their old, unauditable, and occasionally malfunctioning machines are still working as intended.
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RedKing

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24775 on: October 29, 2018, 12:30:06 pm »

Ok, getting back to the horse race, now coming into the final eight-day stretch. Last time, we covered gubernatorial races (which, it should be noted, have tightened further in many races -- FL is now a toss-up, SD is a toss-up, Alaska is now a closer race, etc.)

Now let's turn to the Senate.
First, a bit of refresher for our non-American friends, since the Senate composition can be a bit confusing. There are 100 Senate seats, two from each state regardless of population. Senators are elected for six-year terms. These are then organized into three "classes", which means 1/3 of the Senate is up for election every two years. Typically, this means a given state will have Senator 1, Senator 2, and then a "bye" election in successive electoral cycles. For instance, here in NC, it's our "bye" election with neither Senator on the ballot. But not always -- Minnesota and Mississippi are voting for both of their Senate seats in this election.

Here are the 33 Senate Seats on the ballot this cycle:

Arizona -- Jeff Flake (R), retiring
California -- Dianne Feinstein (D)
Connecticut -- Chris Murphy (D)
Delaware -- Tom Carper (D)
Florida -- Bill Nelson (D)
Hawaii -- Mazie Hirono (D)
Indiana -- Joe Donnelly (D)
Maine -- Angus King (I)
Maryland -- Ben Cardin (D)
Massachusetts -- Elizabeth Warren (D)
Michigan -- Debbie Stabenow (D)
Minnesota1 -- Amy Klobuchar (D)
Minnesota2 -- Tina Smith (D)
Mississippi1 -- Roger Wicker (R)
Mississippi2 -- Cindy Hyde-Smith (R)
Missouri -- Claire McCaskill (D)
Montana -- Jon Tester (D)
Nebraska -- Deb Fischer (R)
Nevada -- Dean Heller (R)
New Jersey -- Bob Menendez (D)
New Mexico -- Martin Heinrich (D)
New York -- Kirsten Gillibrand (D)
North Dakota -- Heidi Heitkamp (D)
Ohio -- Sherrod Brown (D)
Pennsylvania -- Bob Casey Jr. (D)
Rhode Island -- Sheldon Whitehouse (D)
Tennessee -- Bob Corker (R), retiring
Texas -- Ted "Zodiac Killer" Cruz (R)
Utah -- Orrin Hatch (R), retiring
Vermont -- Bernie Sanders (I)
Virginia -- Tim Kaine (D)
Washington -- Maria Cantwell (D)
West Virginia -- Joe Manchin (D*)
Wisconsin -- Tammy Baldwin (D)
Wyoming -- John Barrasso (R)

A quick glance at the list shows the biggest problem for Democrats -- they've got way too much skin in the game (24 seats plus 2 Independent allies), while the Republicans have only 9 in play. And some of those were never going to be "in play", such as Mississippi, Utah and Wyoming.

And remember, the current Senate balance (including Angus King and Bernie Sanders as Democrats, since that's how they typically vote) is 51-49. To take control, Democrats would have to defend all 24 seats plus pick up two Republican seats (since Mike Pence breaks a 50-50 tie). At this point, FiveThirtyEight gives the Dems less than an 18% chance of that happening.

There's no point in discussing the safe races. While Senate seats can't be gerrymandered the way House races are, there are definitely states where the partisan balance swings hard enough that there was never really a race.

So let's look at the races currently rated "lean" or "toss-up" (plus a few more that are just interesting on their own merits).

Spoiler: MISSOURI (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: NEVADA (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: ARIZONA (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: FLORIDA (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: INDIANA (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: NORTH DAKOTA (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: TENNESSEE (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: TEXAS (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: WEST VIRGINIA (click to show/hide)


Posting this while only about 60% complete -- need to take a break but don't want to lose what I've done so far. Will come back later today and finish the last four.
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sluissa

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24776 on: October 29, 2018, 01:09:56 pm »

Re: Florida Nelson vs. Scott

It is going to be a tough race, Nelson is known as being a bit out of touch and mildly incompetent and it's not entirely an unrealistic portrayal either. Definitely a Washington insider, but definitely not the worst example out there of a human being in congress. (I did vote for him anyway.)

Scott on the other hand does show some ability to govern. He's a corrupt, evil person, but he's not incompetent. Examples of corruption are pushing for a drug test to gain state welfare benefits and then having his wife own one of the largest drug testing companies in the state.(Eventually struck down by the courts but implemented long enough to realize it cost more money than it'd save by cutting welfare to the rare drug users it did find.) And running a company prior to being a politician to the brink of destruction as a result of illegal practices in the healthcare industry. (Only saved by his resignation.) Theses are just two that pop to mind, I know there are many more examples. Despite this, the simple fact that he has been able to organize reasonable responses to emergencies and he's one of the few non-Latino politicians out there that seems to have a decent grasp on Spanish and can stand in front of a crowd and get through a speech without embarrassing himself makes him a decent contender.

Rough year and a confusing one given that the governor's race isn't nearly as tight. (Presumably. Some more recent polls and early voting numbers might suggest it's tighter than anyone first thought.)
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Trekkin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24777 on: October 29, 2018, 01:21:18 pm »

(Presumably. Some more recent polls and early voting numbers might suggest it's tighter than anyone first thought.)

Those are recent polls, though, in an election where the electorate is much less certain than normal and early voting is doubly so -- and immediately following an election where a lot of pollsters called it wrong. There's a significant incentive for pollsters to select methods that bias that uncertainty toward tossups, since that's the one outcome where either top-line result makes sense.
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Kagus

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24778 on: October 29, 2018, 01:26:14 pm »

(Presumably. Some more recent polls and early voting numbers might suggest it's tighter than anyone first thought.)

Those are recent polls, though, in an election where the electorate is much less certain than normal and early voting is doubly so -- and immediately following an election where a lot of pollsters called it wrong. There's a significant incentive for pollsters to select methods that bias that uncertainty toward tossups, since that's the one outcome where either top-line result makes sense.

Suddenly, a wild Ron Paul appears! He breaks through the established lines in a historic 3rd party victory! The prophecy is fulfilled, and our fate sealed! The end of days commences!

smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24779 on: October 29, 2018, 01:46:17 pm »

Just to explain Minnesota and Missouri coming up twice real quick for our non-American friends. Both second entries are appointee fills due to resignations (Al Franken over scandal and Thad Cochran for health reasons, respectively) and the general election votes are to determine who will finish the rest of the term, whether the appointed incumbent or someone else.

Also, Mississippii is technically a safe Republican seat, but on 538, the classic and deluxe setting for the forecast show a close race for Cindy Hyde-Smith, so, an upset there is plausible.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2018, 01:53:15 pm by smjjames »
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