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[Egan_BW]

My understanding of gender dysphoria is that the person's body and what their mind expects don't match up, and that causes some form of distress. In that case, it seems like changing the body to match the mind and changing the mind to match the body would both be theoretically effective treatments, right? Provided that the person in question really thinks that's the right thing to do. Brainwashing trans folks to match their physical sex would be horrible.

I suppose that changing the body is much, much easier than changing the mind in that manner, though, so gender reassignment is the much better choice than treating gender dysphoria like a mental illness and trying to fight it. Which I guess means that my perspective on this doesn't mean anything substantial for the world we live in. Just, theoretically if we had the technology to majorly rewrite someone's brain like that, and there were no easier options, it should be considered. Same as if we had the technology to put people into drastically different bodies, it might be valid to treat someone who thinks they're a dolphin by literally turning them into a dolphin.

Then again, that's pretty much science fiction that I'm forcing into ameripol. And probably relies on some basic assumptions that I underestimate the complexity of. I wouldn't know, I'm no medical professional, nor am I trans.


God, that's word salad, not discussion. Sorry, I just wanted to get my thoughts out there and see if anyone thinks they make sense. :v

[Dunamisdeos]

I mean, more or less. How do we even tell what the right thing is to do? We can't right now, so for me it's "maybe just be nice to people, even if they aren't like you, eh?".

[Starver]

Especially!

Everyone 'like you' is a direct and complete competitor for resources you find necessary, and dilute any providence that would unerringly otherwise find itself getting to you. In the game of life, they are the enemy! As I was telling my fellow narcissists, the other day, although I'm not sure they were listening, just gibbering on about some weird theory of supply and demand. Every. Single. One. Of. Them. But I paid them no heed, naturally.

[Egan_BW]

I mean, more or less. How do we even tell what the right thing is to do? We can't right now, so for me it's "maybe just be nice to people, even if they aren't like you, eh?".

I feel like being nice to people who have done you no harm should be an instinctual default for everyone.

[Dunamisdeos]

I mean, more or less. How do we even tell what the right thing is to do? We can't right now, so for me it's "maybe just be nice to people, even if they aren't like you, eh?".

I feel like being nice to people who have done you no harm should be an instinctual default for everyone.

Like, you'd think, right. But it's Tuesday, so I guess it's time to invade someplace out east again. Has anyone seen my 'nvadin hat? It matches the roasted freedom rations I carry with me at all times.

[Trekkin]

I mean, more or less. How do we even tell what the right thing is to do? We can't right now, so for me it's "maybe just be nice to people, even if they aren't like you, eh?".

I feel like being nice to people who have done you no harm should be an instinctual default for everyone.

Unfortunately, the most murderously transphobic Trumpist in the country would wholeheartedly agree, just for a different definition of "people": people who fit their existing understanding of how humans work. For some of them that's the only thing still recognizable from the world they grew up in.

It's telling, I think, that much right-wing rhetoric tends to describe GSRM as a recent phenomenon. I remember listening to Rush Limbaugh on my drive to a recent biophysics symposium and literally every time the existence of transgender people was brought up, he never failed to mention that "now" cis men are whatever they are or "now we have these" so on and so forth, when we know that the underlying biology hasn't really changed significantly in all of recorded history so we'd assume a priori that this is not a new phenomenon, just one we're better at recognizing. (As long as we allow that there might be a genetic component, anyway.)

Education is certainly necessary, but if the trans rights folks are the hundredth change the Trumpists feel have been foisted upon them from outside I wonder how effective facts will be.

[Dunamisdeos]

Yeah I don't think we have sufficient documentation/evidence to understand how far it goes back, but I'd be shocked to find that it's never been an issue before, and surprised at the least to find that it hasn't been omnipresent.

Though of course if environmental factors are in play, there would probably be a significant uptick in modern times.

[SalmonGod]

My understanding of gender dysphoria is that the person's body and what their mind expects don't match up, and that causes some form of distress. In that case, it seems like changing the body to match the mind and changing the mind to match the body would both be theoretically effective treatments, right? Provided that the person in question really thinks that's the right thing to do. Brainwashing trans folks to match their physical sex would be horrible.

I suppose that changing the body is much, much easier than changing the mind in that manner, though, so gender reassignment is the much better choice than treating gender dysphoria like a mental illness and trying to fight it. Which I guess means that my perspective on this doesn't mean anything substantial for the world we live in. Just, theoretically if we had the technology to majorly rewrite someone's brain like that, and there were no easier options, it should be considered. Same as if we had the technology to put people into drastically different bodies, it might be valid to treat someone who thinks they're a dolphin by literally turning them into a dolphin.

Then again, that's pretty much science fiction that I'm forcing into ameripol. And probably relies on some basic assumptions that I underestimate the complexity of. I wouldn't know, I'm no medical professional, nor am I trans.


God, that's word salad, not discussion. Sorry, I just wanted to get my thoughts out there and see if anyone thinks they make sense. :v

Don't take this aggressively.  You seem to be looking for perspective, so here's mine.

Try to imagine you are one of them.  You were born with man bits.  But you were unhappy for most of your life.  You had no idea why.  You just weren't happy.  It just kept getting worse over time, to the point where you had no motivation to do anything.  You floated numbly through your work day, and drank yourself into oblivion every night when you got home.  And couldn't figure out why.  You saw a therapist and went through a period of exploration.  You came to the conclusion that you are a woman.  In the end, it was just that simple.  Admitting this to yourself brings you peace.  It's like something just snapped into place.  All the misery of your life up to that point made sense and vanished with this realization.  It would be nice if your body was shaped like a woman.  Longing for that might even keep you up at night sometimes.  But you are a woman regardless of whether that is something you ever pursue or achieve.  Just knowing that you are a woman and embracing this inner truth, even if you never reveal it to the world, makes everything better.

I know a bunch of trans people, from online acquaintances to meatspace friends.  I've known a few of them since before they realized their true gender, and witnessed the realization/transition.  The last paragraph is what it looks like to me, and what was described to me in detail by one meatspace friend who I knew for a few years as a man before they realized they are a woman.  They're fully transitioned now and present as a woman 100% of the time.  But the first time I talked to them after they had come to the conclusion that they're a woman (still sporting a huge, full beard even), there was already this obvious glowing sense of relief, even knowing that it would be years before they'd be able to physically manifest this identity.

Now imagine someone proposes to you that maybe the solution to your "problem" is to re-program your brain so that you think you are a man again.  From the perspective I just described, that solution amounts to obliteration of the identity that brought you peace after a life of misery.  It's who you are.  Do you entertain the idea of erasing that?  It doesn't seem to me like it's as straightforward as a mismatch between mind and body, and changing one or the other so they match.

[Egan_BW]

I might decide to re-write who I am if it's the only way to happiness. Thankfully for me in this hypothetical, I have a much simpler (relative to changing who you are on a basic level) solution. And I've already applied it! If you change your body/gender identity and this resolves the imbalance, then going on to change your mind anyway is just going to put you back to having a problem. Switch one or the other, never both.

And yeah, changing your personality is an extremely drastic measure.

[Folly]

Trump is promising mysterious middle-class tax cuts, after the midterms. This is obviously going to provide strong incentive for his party members to get out and vote.
I gotta hand it to Trump, the man knows how to put on a show.

I'm calling it now, the mystery middle-class tax cuts will be in the form of trickle-down effects from even bigger upper-class tax cuts.

[MrRoboto75]

The only thing that will trickle-down is hooker urine unto an orange man.

[redwallzyl]

Trump is promising mysterious middle-class tax cuts, after the midterms. This is obviously going to provide strong incentive for his party members to get out and vote.
I gotta hand it to Trump, the man knows how to put on a show.

I'm calling it now, the mystery middle-class tax cuts will be in the form of trickle-down effects from even bigger upper-class tax cuts.

Fiscal conservatism
All about that deficit /s

[Dunamisdeos]

Trump is promising mysterious middle-class tax cuts, after the midterms. This is obviously going to provide strong incentive for his party members to get out and vote.
I gotta hand it to Trump, the man knows how to put on a show.

I'm calling it now, the mystery middle-class tax cuts will be in the form of trickle-down effects from even bigger upper-class tax cuts.

Fiscal conservatism
All about that deficit /s

All about dat debt / No liberal

[Loud Whispers]

Just make more money to pay off your debts by taking on more debts borrowed from money which didn't exist until you took the debt so you can pass the costs to your grandchildren so they can deal with the death of the Earth alongside economic collapse. And your debts

[Folly]

There's no proof of anything.

I kinda love this statement. It's like, there's no way to prove absolutely that anything is or is not real, therefore any ridiculous thing Trump chooses to say is automatically equally as true as anything anyone else says. I think this may actually be how Trump's mind works.