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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4237297 times)

smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24510 on: October 22, 2018, 05:33:04 pm »


The problem is that the memo isn't even taking those nuances into account. AFAIK (I don't think the text of the memo itself was ever released online), the memo doesn't take into account cases where genetics itself throws wrenches into the proccess like what wierd mentions. Not to mention that they are vastly oversimplifying how genetics works (a clear sign that they don't even care about or understand the nuances) along with conflating biological sex with gender and trying to force both into the rigid confines of religion.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2018, 05:36:33 pm by smjjames »
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24511 on: October 22, 2018, 05:34:42 pm »

I'll just leave this here https://youtu.be/yrCxJ1kPQQo
*runs back to Europol*

lol you troll. (the video itself is safe for work, don't know about lyrics)
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Doomblade187

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24512 on: October 22, 2018, 05:35:51 pm »

I'll just leave this here https://youtu.be/yrCxJ1kPQQo
*runs back to Europol*
That man is a wonderful Canadian.
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In any case it would be a battle of critical thinking and I refuse to fight an unarmed individual.
One mustn't stare into the pathos, lest one become Pathos.

Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24513 on: October 22, 2018, 05:41:15 pm »


The problem is that the memo isn't even taking those nuances into account. AFAIK (I don't think the text of the memo itself was ever released online), the memo doesn't take into account cases where genetics itself throws wrenches into the proccess like what wierd mentions. Not to mention that they are vastly oversimplifying how genetics works (a clear sign that they don't even care about or understand the nuances) along with conflating biological sex with gender and trying to force both into the rigid confines of religion.

That makes sense to me, thanks for the input there.

What if the memo/bill/whatever comes out and does include stipulations and clear definitions regarding those tests, or leaves it in the hands of the medical community to define? Maybe if some kind of photo is deemed 100% necessary, it would be protected under HIPPA? What would you guys reactions be then?
« Last Edit: October 22, 2018, 05:42:50 pm by Dunamisdeos »
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FACT I: Post note art is best art.
FACT II: Dunamisdeos is a forum-certified wordsmith.
FACT III: "All life begins with Post-it notes and ends with Post-it notes. This is the truth! This is my belief!...At least for now."
FACT IV: SPEECHO THE TRUSTWORM IS YOUR FRIEND or BEHOLD: THE FRUIT ENGINE 3.0

RedKing

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24514 on: October 22, 2018, 05:43:28 pm »

All right...since it was noted that there's not much to talk about, and we have a midterm election literally two weeks away, let's talk about the horse race. In a regular election year, we'd have been talking about polls and demographics and shit for six months or more.

Basically there's three sets of elections to pay attention to:

1. Governors
2. Senate
3. House of Representatives

First up, governors:

There are 39 state and territorial governorships up for election this year, an unusually large number. 28 of these are currently held by Republicans, two by independents, and the remaining nine by Democrats. Which means a good opportunity for Democrats to take a majority of governorships. On the face of it, that doesn't seem to be much of a prize -- governors don't make law. BUT -- as California and some other blue states have shown, they can certainly choose to drag their feet on implementing Federal law, refuse to implement Federal law, or push their state legslatures to make laws that fill in the gaps left by repeal of Federal laws.

Having a friendly governor also certainly helps a candidate during the 2020 election, especially in battleground states.

Races to watch:

Spoiler: FLORIDA (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: ALASKA (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: ILLINOIS (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: GEORGIA (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: KANSAS (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: MAINE (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: NEVADA (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: OKLAHOMA (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: OHIO (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: WISCONSIN (click to show/hide)


Damn, that took a lot more work than I expected. I'll work on the Senate and House entries later on.
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Remember, knowledge is power. The power to make other people feel stupid.
Quote from: Neil DeGrasse Tyson
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24515 on: October 22, 2018, 05:54:58 pm »

Per the kansas one, (Since I live in that wretched hive of scum and villainy) --

The local attack ads against Paul Davis are literally Ad Hominems about his being caught in a strip club.

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2018/oct/01/congressional-leadership-fund/did-paul-davis-vote-allow-strip-clubs-open-nears-h/


Personally, I find that when a group with literally hundreds of millions of dollars invested into finding dirt comes out with something so shallow it means they cannot really find anything of any real substance to charge with, and shows how weak their hand really is.  "Oh noes! He was caught in a strip club! Woooo!"


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Doomblade187

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24516 on: October 22, 2018, 06:00:22 pm »

Per the kansas one, (Since I live in that wretched hive of scum and villainy) --

The local attack ads against Paul Davis are literally Ad Hominems about his being caught in a strip club.

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2018/oct/01/congressional-leadership-fund/did-paul-davis-vote-allow-strip-clubs-open-nears-h/


Personally, I find that when a group with literally hundreds of millions of dollars invested into finding dirt comes out with something so shallow it means they cannot really find anything of any real substance to charge with, and shows how weak their hand really is.  "Oh noes! He was caught in a strip club! Woooo!"
*le gasp*

*clutches pearls*

Heh. Noice.
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In any case it would be a battle of critical thinking and I refuse to fight an unarmed individual.
One mustn't stare into the pathos, lest one become Pathos.

Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24517 on: October 22, 2018, 06:03:14 pm »

Wasn't that from like...... the 90's? Did they just google him and make an ad?
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FACT I: Post note art is best art.
FACT II: Dunamisdeos is a forum-certified wordsmith.
FACT III: "All life begins with Post-it notes and ends with Post-it notes. This is the truth! This is my belief!...At least for now."
FACT IV: SPEECHO THE TRUSTWORM IS YOUR FRIEND or BEHOLD: THE FRUIT ENGINE 3.0

wierd

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24518 on: October 22, 2018, 06:10:58 pm »

The fact that the ONLY dirt they could find, was that he was caught in a strip club 20+ years ago, and *THAT* is what the decided to sink millions of dollars into an advert strategy over, is what I am getting at here.


I mean, you can do a fairly cursory investigation of any of the conservicronies and find MUUUUUUUUUCH worse than that. 


To make it even more salacious, in all the ways they did not intend, they GO OUT OF THEIR WAY to conflate the drug bust with Davis, even though davis did not have drugs, nor was he involved in the sting in any way.

And, as politifact points out, the bill he voted AGAINST?  It was purely and simply religious prudery taken too far, trying to hyper-regulate the sex industry out of existence, because it makes baby jesus cry. Natually, he voted against that kind of shit, but it would be incomprehensible to the conservitards to not spin that into Davis being a sex craved, depraved, g-string gnawing pervert out to corrupt the moral fabric of our community.

When there is literally NOTHING of substance in the advert, it pretty much says all you need to know.
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Trekkin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24519 on: October 22, 2018, 06:11:08 pm »


The problem is that the memo isn't even taking those nuances into account. AFAIK (I don't think the text of the memo itself was ever released online), the memo doesn't take into account cases where genetics itself throws wrenches into the proccess like what wierd mentions. Not to mention that they are vastly oversimplifying how genetics works (a clear sign that they don't even care about or understand the nuances) along with conflating biological sex with gender and trying to force both into the rigid confines of religion.

That makes sense to me, thanks for the input there.

What if the memo/bill/whatever comes out and does include stipulations and clear definitions regarding those tests, or leaves it in the hands of the medical community to define? Maybe if some kind of photo is deemed 100% necessary, it would be protected under HIPPA? What would you guys reactions be then?

Well, then we have the problem with "the medical community" not being at all unified. Doctors, it must be said, generally don't keep as current as we might like after medical school, and this isn't something where you necessarily want to give people('s parents) the option of a second opinion.

I empathize with people for whom this is confusing; on the one hand, there's more known about the genetics, epigenetics, endocrinology, psychology and physiology of sex and gender identity than ever before, and more being learned at a rate that's beyond anyone's ability to keep up with it casually. On the other, the picture is still incomplete, and it strikes at the heart of a paradigm shift in how we understand biology as a stochastic process that we've been trying not to deal with for a while. We can, in many cases, compellingly say how sex can be determined, including in rare ways, but we can't say why that's what we evolved to do with nearly as much confidence as we might like without facing really strange questions about how life actually works and what actually counts as an error, and then people get kind of philosophical about it. It's a lot to take in before it all makes any kind of sense.

So in a way, it wouldn't be easy as balls to convince people that there aren't really countably many sexes, let alone two (or two and a bunch of disorders). The scientific consensus here is fuzzy and not discrete and intricate in ways that we probably shouldn't try to codify into law, but that's really unsatisfying if you want to not have to think about it. That is, after all, what the Trumpists want to a literally murderous degree, and what they'll take any law of this type to mean, regardless of how many caveats we add to make it more consonant with reality.
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24520 on: October 22, 2018, 06:13:19 pm »

On Maine: Aw, I thought the ranked voting thing was going to be used for the general. Though I guess understandably they wouldn't have had a whole lot of time to set it up after it got reinstated in June.

As for Wisconsin, it's not the only state with no term limits whatsoever for Governor.

Wasn't that from like...... the 90's? Did they just google him and make an ad?

Just shows how deep they had to dig to get dirt on him.
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24521 on: October 22, 2018, 06:52:59 pm »


@Trekkin

I agree with most of that, but I think that the logic of not being able to trust the medical community with this because doctors cant be trusted to keep up to date on medical definitions of things is a bit fuzzy. That's their literal jobs, they are the only experts in existence. That sounds almost like we would prefer that there be no medical definition, but also use medical science to prove the point.

I think making it a purely medical concern would remove the philosophy from the situation, and therefore the ideological reason for the debate itself. I mean, for people who care about such things. Most people. Some people would definitely insist that science doesn't matter and it's their religion/feelings that do.

Anyway that political ad is ridiculous. I don't even think of that as digging deep, that's like the most cursory examination ever. The least possible effort.
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FACT I: Post note art is best art.
FACT II: Dunamisdeos is a forum-certified wordsmith.
FACT III: "All life begins with Post-it notes and ends with Post-it notes. This is the truth! This is my belief!...At least for now."
FACT IV: SPEECHO THE TRUSTWORM IS YOUR FRIEND or BEHOLD: THE FRUIT ENGINE 3.0

Trekkin

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24522 on: October 22, 2018, 07:07:38 pm »


@Trekkin

I agree with most of that, but I think that the logic of not being able to trust the medical community with this because doctors cant be trusted to keep up to date on medical definitions of things is a bit fuzzy. That's their literal jobs, they are the only experts in existence. That sounds almost like we would prefer that there be no medical definition, but also use medical science to prove the point.

I think making it a purely medical concern would remove the philosophy from the situation, and therefore the ideological reason for the debate itself. I mean, for people who care about such things. Most people. Some people would definitely insist that science doesn't matter and it's their religion/feelings that do.

Anyway that political ad is ridiculous. I don't even think of that as digging deep, that's like the most cursory examination ever. The least possible effort.

They are emphatically not the only experts in existence, although some of them certainly like to pretend that PhDs don't exist, but regardless the problem isn't so much that doctors can't be trusted at all as that they can't be trusted uniformly, which is a basic prerequisite for making equitable laws contingent on them. It's sort of a Chancellor's Foot problem, but one exacerbated by the issue being so emotionally charged.

We can, to some degree, compensate for the variability of medical expertise through seeking multiple opinions and so forth, but law is not medical practice and those mechanisms can't necessarily be freely brought to bear. Thus the question becomes whose opinion of your genitals we enshrine in law, whether it be one doctor's opinion or your local doctor's opinion, with all the risks that that opinion turns out to be wrong at the speed of medical research but can only be correctd at the speed of law.
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24523 on: October 22, 2018, 07:27:34 pm »

No no, my mistake, I wasn't just including practicing physicians when I said doctors. Sorry about that.

My point is that there is no room for opinion if you include hard evidence involving genetic markers. Also, there should be no room for opinions if we have the ability to use such things to define it. I'm not saying we have regular doctors (with opinions of their own) show up at congress to tell them what to do, I'm saying we get the necessary peer-reviewed research into what range or spectrum exists, then make informed decisions thereof, which would be enacted by the medical community under guidelines put forth according to the aforementioned research.

Much like how we no longer need to assume evil spirits cause the flu, we no longer need to assume that a person with an unusual gender is that way because the devil mutated their brains, or because they just they feel like it. A full understanding enables a society to offer proper, helpful health services based on what a person actually needs.

Again, this is based on my understanding of the arguments made in defense of transgender folks. Also, I also sincerely doubt that this is the goal with which the memo was put forth. I know who we are dealing with, after all.
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FACT I: Post note art is best art.
FACT II: Dunamisdeos is a forum-certified wordsmith.
FACT III: "All life begins with Post-it notes and ends with Post-it notes. This is the truth! This is my belief!...At least for now."
FACT IV: SPEECHO THE TRUSTWORM IS YOUR FRIEND or BEHOLD: THE FRUIT ENGINE 3.0

smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #24524 on: October 22, 2018, 07:38:02 pm »

Except that they aren't even using genetic markers, not anything close to the correct definition. As far as we know, their 'genetic' criteria are 'has either two of this type of chromosome or one of this type and one of that type' as their 'ultimate inalienable unarguable truth'.

Well, that works for those whose particular situation is induced by an obvious genetic abnormality. However, "being in the wrong-gendered body" has no known genetic corollary (or whether it's even genetic or a matter of circumstances and the environment of the mother prior to childbirth).

And of course, when the government starts deciding things based on genetics, it raises the specter of eugenics. What they're trying to do is far enough away that it doesn't raise immediate red flags, but it does seem like it's opening the door to the path towards the slippery slope.
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