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[Trekkin]

That's still going on, Ispil. So's ignoring the existence of intersex individuals altogether or pretending they're so rare "they don't matter", despite in reality being in total about 1-2 per thousand births depending on how you define intersex.

Of course, when you point this out to the Trumpists, they'll happily suggest making them that rare, because "racial purity" or whatever.

[smjjames]

I don't know when the author of that wrote it, but it's definetly getting talked about now.

It's worth noting, in respect to the above, that it... either was or is a common practice for doctors to surgically "normalize" a newborn's genitalia to conform to a specific sex. For reference. Said reference also contains details why "genetic testing" to verify gender is stupid, because it ignores the wonderful world of chromosomal disorders.

That was exactly my thought too when I heard about the genetic testing, the fact that chromosomal disorders exist will throw a significant wrench in it. I also like the automobile analogy Hamblin (the author of that The Atlantic article) used, though I'd also throw in jeeps and vans to further drive the point home.

[Doomblade187]

It's worth noting, in respect to the above, that it... either was or is a common practice for doctors to surgically "normalize" a newborn's genitalia to conform to a specific sex. For reference. Said reference also contains details why "genetic testing" to verify gender is stupid, because it ignores the wonderful world of chromosomal disorders.

And from the reading of the regulation, it's unclear what would happen to intersex people, though I suspect it would be a resurgence in genital "normalization" surgery around birth.

Edit: holy fuck, what would happen to adult intersex people. :0

[wierd]

Intersex happens for all kinds of reasons though.

Maybe there as an endocrine disruption when the mullerian duct was regressing, and it did not fully regress.
Maybe your X chromosome has the SRY gene translocated to it?
Maybe your Y chromosome has a defective copy of SRY?
Maybe your SRY is in the right place, and is fine, but the synthesis pathway is fucked up somehow?
Maybe you are an incomplete zygotic chimera between a male and a female zygote, and you have incomplete mullerian duct regression, ALONG WITH male genitals (and subsequently also have a uterus and ovaries or perhaps an oveotestis.)

Seriously, biochemistry is pretty damned complex with lots of wrinkles. All kinds of shit can go wrong that will cause you to have "Ambiguous genitals".

"Purity" is a bullshit thing to even consider in a good number of such cases, as quite a few of these root causes are epigenetic, rather than genetic in nature. (Sure, SRY related things are often genetic, but androgen insensitivity can be epigenetic, and chimeric fusion of heterogeneously sexed zygotes is all over the place in what can happen.)

[Kagus]

Edit: holy fuck, what would happen to adult intersex people. :0

Qualifying as both alternatives covered under the bill, they are classed as BOTH and elevate to a higher plane of existence as ULTIMATE avatars of THE LAW.

[smjjames]

Which really goes to show that they don't actually give a damn about the genetics or the biology, they just want to define it as this and that while using DNA as a proxy for their argument.

Also, the bill/memo from HHS hasn't actually been released yet, it's a leaked memo at this point that is little more than a trial balloon.

[wierd]

Such a registry is farcically useless though.

At best, it would provide some diagnostic data to dox future porn stars / and or / identify sexual predators posting illicit photos of their junk.

At worst, it would be rendered useless by genital mutilation (either early in life, such as circumcision, or for cosmetic reasons later in life, such as all those thing people do with piercings and scarification), and provide sick fucks with a national registry of baby crotch shots.

And for what? To placate some bizarre moral panic?


Here's a very real, very likely consequence of trying to do this shit, with it being the basis for providing health care services, or assigning gender.  There's a disorder called Swyer Syndrome.  It is caused by the SRY gene being defective in an XY genotype fetus's development.

https://rarediseases.org/rare-diseases/swyer-syndrome/

It results in a normal appearing female external genital package, but missing or severely stunted (and non-functional) ovaries, with otherwise normal vaginal and uterine development.  People with it develop as female identity type more often than not.

So-- A baby is born, and it has the external female package. Its DNA is sampled, per this bullshit plan. Whoa there, cowboy-- that's a boy! (Except it's totally not.)

How does Orange Idiot intend to resolve this?  Do they do a full on sex-change operation to give the baby a reconstructed penis, and some marbles with hormone therapy, and call it a *WIN!*, or do they offer reproductive/gynecological health services for the female baby, so that it can get pregnant via donor eggs, and gets proper hormone replacement for health reasons?


Really, this kind of thing is just pure epic fail before it even leaves the gate. Why even trial balloon it?

[smjjames]

Uh, I don't recall anything anywhere saying that the memo would include taking crotch shots.... or any kind of registry for that matter. Just that they want to render the transgender definition as nonexistent. I looked back at the NYT article and it mentions nothing even approaching a registry.

[wierd]

If you are going to take a registry, it is going to be part of the vital statistics contained on a birth record.  Since they intend to use it to be the gold standard for gender, to force the issue, there is likely going to be official photos taken, similar to having footprints and handprints taken. 

The reason is because intersex takes on a very wide spectrum of presentation.

[smjjames]

Here's a very real, very likely consequence of trying to do this shit, with it being the basis for providing health care services, or assigning gender.  There's a disorder called Swyer Syndrome.  It is caused by the SRY gene being defective in an XY genotype fetus's development.

https://rarediseases.org/rare-diseases/swyer-syndrome/

It results in a normal appearing female external genital package, but missing or severely stunted (and non-functional) ovaries, with otherwise normal vaginal and uterine development.  People with it develop as female identity type more often than not.

So-- A baby is born, and it has the external fetal package. It's DNA is sampled, per this bullshit plan. Whoa there, cowboy-- that's a boy! (Except it's totally not.)

How does Orange Idiot intend to resolve this?  Do they do a full on sex-change operation to give the baby a reconstructed penis, and some marbles with hormone therapy, and call it a *WIN!*, or do they offer reproductive/gynecological health services for the female baby, so that it can get pregnant via donor eggs, and gets proper hormone replacement for health reasons?


Really, this kind of thing is just pure epic fail before it even leaves the gate. Why even trial balloon it?

It's something that's been circulating around since spring, and you'd have to ask those who thought it up in the first place.

As I said before, they clearly don't have genetics or biology in mind, they're just taking this logic route 'god created males and females'-> 'males have XY and females have XX'-> 'therefore XX MUST BE FEMALE and XY MUST BE MALE BECAUSE GOD SAYS SO'->'BECAUSE GOD!!!!!!1!11!'

If you are going to take a registry, it is going to be part of the vital statistics contained on a birth record.  Since they intend to use it to be the gold standard for gender, to force the issue, there is likely going to be official photos taken, similar to having footprints and handprints taken. 

The reason is because intersex takes on a very wide spectrum of presentation.

You're assuming that official croch shot photos will be taken, theres no actual mention of that.

[wierd]

Without the clinical documentation, it becomes very difficult to justify or defend against resulting clinical practices, such as default assignment correction for ambiguous genitalia.

Like I said, it is a wide spectrum of presentation, with landmines like Swyer syndrome thrown in.  While this might be a bit outside forum guidelines, here's a commonly circulated diagram for rating intersex presentation in the delivery room.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK278953/figure/congn-adren-hyprplsa_f_congn-adren-hyprplsa_etx-ped-ch8-fig2/

It can be any of those, and any of the in-betweens.

The only effective way to properly document it would be to photograph it.

[smjjames]

It's probably as far from the guidelines as allowable, and only in this particular political context and if one absolutely had to post something, I'd stick with simple medical diagrams.

Anyhow, I do get your point about medical documentation, just that the memo doesn't mention (AFAIK anyway) doing it for cases of 'hey that looks normal' since a transgender could have had perfectly bigous genitalia at birth.

Probably why they went with genetic testing since without the genetics state of having 'two of this type of chromosome' and 'one of this type and one of that type of chromosome', they can't justify it using the bible.

[Dunamisdeos]

Spoiler: Hey so look, not only am I not an expert on these things, but I also have noone in my life whatsoever who identifies as trans. I have noone to offer me any experience on these matters, even secondhand. So I'm going to put out my reasoning after reading these articles and opinions and I appreciate feedback, including reasons why I am factually wrong here. (click to show/hide)

Wouldn't the concept of genetic testing remove wrenches, as it were? I'm reading this article that was cited by Ispil, and others, and it seems to cite chromosomal nuances as the primary cause of difference from gender norms. That article even cites things such as environmental pollutants as possible sources, which means we are talking about at least some of these cases being man-made random mutation. They seem to fight against gender as a personal choice.
 
That said, the primary public arguments i see against those ideas seems to be that transgender people are simply confused, or lying, or seeking attention, or some similar foolish thing. If you are certified at birth as different via something as immutable as genetic testing, that would either confirm or deny the presence of a physical difference that justifies a non-binary gender. Wouldn't you be able to avoid unnecessary genital alterations by properly defining a condition via genetic testing that either requires it or does not for hard-fact-medical reasons? It would be easy as balls (ha) to get people to teach their children about alternate genders if we had actual indisputable definitions as decided by reproducible facts.
 
Like I understand that in practice genetic testing on a governmental scale to assign a role in life is some 1984 precursor shit, but really how else do you put this issue to bed? The other common position I see, that of "accept what a person tells you they are" seems super illogical according to these articles. It seems like it would be irresponsible NOT to try and define alternate genders.

Maybe instead of a photo just, I don't know, use the aforementioned genetic proof in your medical record.

[wierd]

Oh, I totally *GET* that this is to try to stamp out transgendered people, and gender dysphoria disorder as "legitimate things."

But, to try to do that, it would have to go in very strange directions indeed, and for the reasons I just mentioned, any actually real implementation of such a rule, would ultimately become dependent upon clinical documentation, which means...


I am 100% with you that this is just plain retarded, and is obviously the ham-fisted result of trying to shoe-horn objective reality with a preconceived notion or ideal, for purely political gain, at everyone's actual loss.

I am just pointing out that any ACTUAL implementation, if it actually tried to accomplish what it claims to want to accomplish, would have to do much more harm than people are thinking here, because of the actual needs for baseline documentation to justify medical decision making-- and that because of this, it is an EVEN WORSE thing than most think.

[ChairmanPoo]

I'll just leave this here https://youtu.be/yrCxJ1kPQQo
*runs back to Europol*