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[Folly]

Unfortunately the US has a principle of freedom of expression, and to suggest that a billion dollar company’s bottom line takes precedence over that is cuntishness of the highest order.

Freedom of expression is strictly a principle though, not a policy. If you go to school and call your teacher a whore, you'll get expelled. If you go to work and tell your customers that your company's product is a piece of crap, you'll be fired. Even in cases where the constitutional right actually applies, it's more of a guideline. If you go out to a public park and pass out fliers with bomb-making instructions and encourage people to use them on soft targets, the government will swoop in and shut that shit right down. You never really have absolute freedom of expression, you just have more leeway than many other governments allow.

[smjjames]

Also there's the point, as per the wikipedia article, that the players weren't even on the field during the anthem until 2009, then by 2016 they were "encouraged" to stand, and later were demanded to stand, or else. Now, the President is saying stand to attention or we should ship your black asses out of the country.

All while the Department of Defense poured millions of dollars of taxpayers money in to encourage these patriotic displays. If that isn't seriously compromised and already politicized, i don't know what is. Sure, blame the players for kneeling, but this is a recent situation that the NFL and the DoD actually created the tinder for, by trying to hamfistedly force people to act patriotic. Using government money to coerce people to behave in patriotic displays then freaking out when they don't comply isn't democratic, it's a downright fascistic tendency. I thought Big Government was a bad thing, and this type of thing is the most extreme form of Big Government: thoughtcrime.

The source link for that on wikipedia says that the DoD link is tenuous, but regardless of who created the situation, here we are and they're reaping the whirlwind.

[hector13]

Unfortunately the US has a principle of freedom of expression, and to suggest that a billion dollar company’s bottom line takes precedence over that is cuntishness of the highest order.

Freedom of expression is strictly a principle though, not a policy. If you go to school and call your teacher a whore, you'll get expelled. If you go to work and tell your customers that your company's product is a piece of crap, you'll be fired. Even in cases where the constitutional right actually applies, it's more of a guideline. If you go out to a public park and pass out fliers with bomb-making instructions and encourage people to use them on soft targets, the government will swoop in and shut that shit right down. You never really have absolute freedom of expression, you just have more leeway than many other governments allow.

Schools, among other things, teach kids how to act in society at large. Punishment in that situation is corrective behaviour. What behaviour needs to be corrected by NFL players kneeling during the anthem?

Being fired for not doing your job is sensible, since you’d presumably be getting paid to sell the products you’re lambasting. Are NFL players kneeling during the anthem failing to do their job?

Passing out bomb-making instructions and inciting violence are criminal activities. You get the picture by now I imagine.

I mean we could argue semantics all day, but at what point do we consider businesses right to make money is more important than a person’s right to say that things could probably be better is the point I’d like you to address.

That you agree with message behind the protest isn't relevant.  What if players were raising a fist... or perhaps, an open hand, at a 45 degree angle, in defense of "border security"?

I agree that the Right plays dirty, but the question is whether athletes should be allowed to perform low-key political messages before their games.

I think the answer is yes, it ought to be allowed.  However, will their *employer* threaten to terminate their contract over it?  That's fair game, as far as I see it.  The protest has no impact if there are no stakes.  People losing their (obscenely lucrative) careers over this issue only strengthens their message.

Trying to prevent them from being fired... deflates the whole protest.
Which is still a misguided protest in my *very* humble opinion, but I have a lot of respect for the participants.

You gotta take the bad with the good. If one of the NFL players wanted to publicly support Trump, that’s their deal. If a group did, same thing. I’d wholly disagree with what the said, but not their right to say it. Maybe draw the line at widely regarded symbols of hate, though.

I’m not sure I see how them losing their job, regardless of how lucrative, makes the protest any more or less potent. Aside from that, the NFL find themselves in the unenviable position of trying to please a generally conservative fan base with trying to keep a mostly black player base onside.

[Rolan7]

People putting their jobs on the line makes their message more potent, and I believe these players did so.
Getting fired over it would go a step further, making them martyrs in a sense.  Which is probably why they haven't been fired, heh.

It's a brave thing they're doing.  By putting their lucrative salaries on the line, they risked a lot.

[hector13]

I dunno, man. The acting New York Jets owner said he’d pay any fines his players received for protesting, while the Miami Dolphins said they’d suspend players up to four games for same. The teams can’t even stand united in what they do with this.

Perhaps I’m just being contrarian though, since it’s apparently too damn hot to sleep and I need something to occupy my time.

[Karnewarrior]

Personally I dislike the tradition of playing the national anthem at sports events anyway, if only because America is too obsessed with "patriotism" (actually just fellating a specific ideal U.S.) already and could really turn down a lot of the old cold-war era North-Koreaification like the pledge in schools every day and other such things, and not really lose anything valuable.

But I'm pretty sure that makes my opinion invalid because it's not patriotic.

[Doomblade187]

Personally I dislike the tradition of playing the national anthem at sports events anyway, if only because America is too obsessed with "patriotism" (actually just fellating a specific ideal U.S.) already and could really turn down a lot of the old cold-war era North-Koreaification like the pledge in schools every day and other such things, and not really lose anything valuable.

But I'm pretty sure that makes my opinion invalid because it's not patriotic.

I never realized it was odd until someone somewhere pointed out that we're one of the few democratic countries that does this stuff. I don't think it's bad usually, but while I don't think it would lose much of our identity to stop it, this whole hubbub over the national anthem bullshit needs to stop.

The reason the motivation for protest is vague is entirely because people use patriotism outrage to plaster over any dialogue, and the whole "kneeling is unpatriotic" thing is honestly bullshit. As I heard somewhere, what if someone knelt for the fallen troops? Would that be unpatriotic? I know I've not stood before because I was tired. Am I unpatriotic? (Somewhat, but not because of that.)

The point is, all this "kneeling bad" business is utter bullshit, and the media is doing an unfortunately good job at plastering over any possible dialogue.

[Trekkin]

As I heard somewhere, what if someone knelt for the fallen troops? Would that be unpatriotic?

Of course it would be. Have you not heard? Patriotism is blind adherence to every functionally pointless ritual trapping now. That's what happens when the country is suckered into cheering the destruction and subsequent resale of the ideals the rituals are meant to celebrate; the territory having been destroyed, they worship the map in its place.

America is dead and the 0.1% bid on who gets to wear its skin as a suit for the next few years. Stand for the pledge, lest you break down weeping and notionally decrease our overlords' holy/patriotic/all-important profit margins. Choice is the new price of freedom.

[Rolan7]

Oh yes, we are definitely the only country that gets patriotic over sporting events

As far as European revisionism goes, this is pretty close to the narrative that we are the *real* imperialists, nevermind that we're literally an escaped colony.  "We learned it from you!!"

[Reelya]

Oh yes, we are definitely the only country that gets patriotic over sporting events

It's different when people get patriotic about games they play against other nations, but the USA reserves it's peak nationalism for a game that they only play with themselves.

In the World Cup if it's Britain vs Germany, sure, both sides root for their own team, but they have the knowledge that either side could lose: it's an agreement to play a game against someone else. Soccer, cricket, rugby - they're all international sports.

NFL flag-waving is different because an American team always wins, therefore it's much more insular/isolationist.

[PTTG??]

America is dead and the 0.1% bid on who gets to wear its skin as a suit for the next few years. Stand for the pledge, lest you break down weeping and notionally decrease our overlords' holy/patriotic/all-important profit margins. Choice is the new price of freedom.

This is almost as annoying as MAGA spam. If sincerely believed, it would imply that freedom either isn't worth fighting for, or that you intend to emulate the Unabomber. Since I don't think you mean either of those, all you're really saying is that American Sheeple don't deserve your input, so you won't vote.

Democracy lives, and this defeatist attitude does nothing to strengthen it. You want to change the system? Then go get involved. Run for a local office. I'm rooting for you.

[Starver]

The thing is that some people get triggered when you interject politics into sports, so, even though kneeling/raise fisting in itself doesn't disrupt or interrupt things, it still triggers those who don't want politics in their sports.

Too true. Ban national anthems, flags, the display of affiliative clothing... and marching bands and the rest while we're at it. 

[Kagus]

We should ban bans; bans have consistently been shown to upset multiple people, and should therefore be banned in order to uphold the peace.

[Dorsidwarf]

make sure to stand up straight during mr trump's millitary parade or you'll be fined for crude and unpatriotic acts.

[ChairmanPoo]

.
In the World Cup if it's Britain vs Germany, sure, both sides root for their own team, but they have the knowledge that either side could lose

No, I dont think American sports fans are particularily worse than European counterparts.
I could mention without straining too much several large "football fans" associations that are pretty much fronts for far right politics and skinheads. Ultras Sur for one.