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[Max™]

Not enough of seducing judges into becoming unconditional love slaves, and having them work as sleeper agents.

ARE YOU KIDDING ME, DO YOU KNOW HOW HARD IT WAS TO GET GINSBURG INTO THE SACK JUST FOR YOU TO THROW IT AWAY LIKE IT WAS NOTHING?

[UristMcChladni]

As for suicides, I feel like they ARE unrelated and we've had that discussion before.

Give the argument it's due. He presented data that they're related. What's the evidence they're not?

[sluissa]

As for suicides, I feel like they ARE unrelated and we've had that discussion before.

Give the argument it's due. He presented data that they're related. What's the evidence they're not?

Once again, we've had this discussion before, as I"m sure we've had this discussion on guns before and come to a stalemate so why am I even bothering... but...

A suicide only affects the person who chooses to commit it. I admit there's an argument that people "owe" something to other people to stay alive. But I'd also argue that choosing to die is the last choice left to a lot of people and there shouldn't be a stigma against taking that choice.

As such, there is no "harm" done in suicide as the person taking that option is accepting the consequences, and so it doesn't belong in a discussion about how much harm guns do. Suicides are simply used as a way to inflate death numbers from guns. Not that you really need to do that as death numbers from guns are already high enough to cause people worry, but it's only used as a political tool rather than out of any sort of worry for the people actually committing suicide.

[Dunamisdeos]

Hey I missed the part about bears, and I am a big fan of them. You cannot shoot grizzly bears with small guns. Or rather, you CAN shoot grizzly bears with small guns, but it's akin to saying that yes, you CAN kill an M1-Abrams with a screwdriver given enough time and precision.

Basically, if you are a dude in the woods and a bear decides to eat you that bear is going to eat you unless you can blast away enough of it to render it physically nonfunctional.

Capt. Clark & Drewyer killed the largest brown bear this evening which we have yet seen. it was a most tremendious looking anamal, and extreemly hard to kill notwithstanding he had five balls through his lungs and five others in various parts he swam more than half the distance across the river to a sandbar & it was at least twenty minutes before he died; he did not attempt to attact, but fled and made the most tremendous roaring from the moment he was shot.

had shot a brown bear which immediately turned on him and pursued him a considerable distance but he had wounded it so badly that it could not overtake him; I immediately turned out with seven of the party in quest of this monster, we at length found his trale and persued him about a mile by the blood through very thick brush of rosbushes and the large leafed willow; we finally found him concealed in some very thick brush and shot him through the skull with two balls...

.... . . we now found that Bratton had shot him through the center of the lungs, notwithstanding which he had pursued him near half a mile and had returned more than double that distance and with his tallons had prepared himself a bed in the earth of about 2 feet deep and five long and was perfectly alive when we found him which could not have been less than 2 hours after he received the wound

Six good hunters of the party fired at a Brown or Yellow Bear Several times before they killed him, & indeed he had like to have defeated the whole party, he pursued them Seperately as they fired on him, and was near Catching Several of them   one he pursued into the river, this bear was large & fat would way about 500 wt...

...he pursued two of them seperately so close that they were obliged to throw aside their guns and poucnes and throw themselves into the river altho' the bank was nearly twenty feet perpendicular; so enraged was this animal that he plunged into the river only a few feet behind the second man he had compelled to take refuge in the water, when one of those who still remained on shore shot him through the head and finally killed him.

It's also worth noting that the guns they used were, while being flintlock muskets, were also likely of .49 caliber. In short, bear-killing guns are a necessity of continued existence in certain parts of the US.

[hector13]

As for suicides, I feel like they ARE unrelated and we've had that discussion before.

Give the argument it's due. He presented data that they're related. What's the evidence they're not?

Once again, we've had this discussion before, as I"m sure we've had this discussion on guns before and come to a stalemate so why am I even bothering... but...

A suicide only affects the person who chooses to commit it. I admit there's an argument that people "owe" something to other people to stay alive. But I'd also argue that choosing to die is the last choice left to a lot of people and there shouldn't be a stigma against taking that choice.

As such, there is no "harm" done in suicide as the person taking that option is accepting the consequences, and so it doesn't belong in a discussion about how much harm guns do. Suicides are simply used as a way to inflate death numbers from guns. Not that you really need to do that as death numbers from guns are already high enough to cause people worry, but it's only used as a political tool rather than out of any sort of worry for the people actually committing suicide.

It’a a death caused by a gun. Technically easy enough access to a gun to use it, but eh, hair-splitting. Why shouldn’t it be counted?

I’d also like to point out that suicide may not “harm” others (for a given definition of harm) but it will  affect more people than the person who killed themselves.

[UristMcChladni]

As for suicides, I feel like they ARE unrelated and we've had that discussion before.

Give the argument it's due. He presented data that they're related. What's the evidence they're not?

Once again, we've had this discussion before, as I"m sure we've had this discussion on guns before and come to a stalemate so why am I even bothering... but...

A suicide only affects the person who chooses to commit it. I admit there's an argument that people "owe" something to other people to stay alive. But I'd also argue that choosing to die is the last choice left to a lot of people and there shouldn't be a stigma against taking that choice.

As such, there is no "harm" done in suicide as the person taking that option is accepting the consequences, and so it doesn't belong in a discussion about how much harm guns do. Suicides are simply used as a way to inflate death numbers from guns. Not that you really need to do that as death numbers from guns are already high enough to cause people worry, but it's only used as a political tool rather than out of any sort of worry for the people actually committing suicide.

I'm not wholly against suicide, but there should be enough barriers to prevent it from being a snap decision. Not having a gun available to kill themselves with may lead many to consider other options, like seeking help for the underlying issues. That's of substantial benefit to them and to society.

[Gentlefish]

A suicide only affects the person who chooses to commit it.

I'd like to refute that point 100%

Suicide affects way more than just the person who commits even, even if they're the ones who (originally) end up dead. It may even lead others to commit suicide.

[Zangi]

Perhaps separating the murder/accident gun death and suicide by gun statistics might help it look less like politicizing hogwash.

Yes suicide bad, but is not murder.

[Gentlefish]

Perhaps separating the murder/accident gun death and suicide by gun statistics might help it look less like politicizing hogwash.

Yes suicide bad, but is not murder.

Depending on where you live it is, legally, murder to commit suicide. One human is taking another human's life after all. If justice weren't so punitive I'd be okay if attempted suicide were a crime so that whoever attempted could get help since most of the time those who have tried and failed tend to regret ever trying in the first place. Another good reason to tighten gun control.

Note that personally, I do not wish for gun prohibition, but for regulation, screening, and a goddamn digital serial number database. You know. Like cars.

[martinuzz]

One human is taking another human's life after all.

Erm...? Even if a schizophrenic or someone with multiple personality syndrome commits suicide, it's still not one human taking another human's life. Unless you are referring to the guy who sold the gun / drove the train / constructed the high rise tower.

[Dunamisdeos]

One human is taking another human's life after all.

Erm...? Even if a schizophrenic or someone with multiple personality syndrome commits suicide, it's still not one human taking another human's life. Unless you are referring to the guy who sold the gun / drove the train / constructed the high rise tower.

I believe that he means that since a human's life was taken by a human, this is legally murder in some areas.

[martinuzz]

I get that, it's just that the word 'another' is inappropriate.

[sluissa]

Ruining others lives by committing suicide is a dick move, but so would walking out on them, moving across the country and never talking to them again.

It's all a matter of how you handle it. But once again, that's more context surrounding the choice, not the choice itself. When we're talking about the terminally ill or the elderly and infirm considering suicide, we're much more willing to accept that. Because they tend to talk about it before they do it. If I were in a bad marriage or had a bad relationship with family, but tried to make it work, and ultimately, after discussing it and considering it, decided the healthiest thing for me (and possibly everyone) was for me just to leave. Some people would even consider that the responsible thing to do. Many would be cheering me on.

[Trekkin]

When do we get about to fixing the underlying problems rather than fear mongering about the symptoms? When do we stop focusing on the exceptions to the rule rather than the majority new rules will unduly affect? When do we stop spreading lies and half truths in the name of some sort of contrived morality?

Maybe when we stop doing this?

it's only used as a political tool rather than out of any sort of worry for the people actually committing suicide.

It's...very difficult to take seriously a cry for more productive discourse coming from someone who assumes his opponents are arguing in bad faith.

[nenjin]

The second time he's done that, no less.

All I know is when my best friend in high school ate his dad's shotgun out in the middle of a cornfield somewhere, it changed me. I see him in my dreams all the time still, 15 years later.

It's not about how you "handle it." Even when you handle your grief, it haunts you. Literally.

Ruining others lives by committing suicide is a dick move, but so would walking out on them, moving across the country and never talking to them again.

I wish to God that were the case. At least he'd still be breathing. The two are not even remotely equivalent.