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[wierd]

I think the BEST solution is for the US to stop being so deep in monied interest's pockets that domestic policy is dictated exclusively by quarterly reports, and instead based on actual public benefit studies.

[PTTG??]

I think the BEST solution is for the US to stop being so deep in monied interest's pockets that domestic policy is dictated exclusively by quarterly reports, and instead based on actual public benefit studies.

We tried that, but a 18th century compromise with slaveholders means we had to go with Trump instead.

Interesting factoid.

Since 2007, there've been 9028 deaths attributable to preventable diseases.

In the same period, there have been 229 deaths due to whatever Wikipedia considers a school shooting to be.[url=http://Of course, this is an unfair comparison, because guns are fatal in many contexts, not just schools, while the vaccine death count is a very broad total. For example, there were a total of [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States#Statistics]16,000]

Of course, this is an unfair comparison, because guns are fatal in many contexts, not just schools, while the vaccine death count is a very broad total. For example, there were a total of [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States#Statistics]16,000 gun homicides in the US circa 2016 alone.

What I take away from this is that school shootings are terrible, and they're only a tiny fraction of the gun violence in the United States.

[Dorsidwarf]

well yeah, but anti-terrorism has a budget that could quite literally launch a mars mission, despite the fact that in the last 10 years the US has suffered 1/19th of the annual casualties from terror in northern africa and the middle east. Not the total casualties in the middle east that is, the US' 10 year sum is 1/6th of the annual deaths in the ME/NAf

People are loud on school shootings for the same reason they're loud on terrorism: It Isnt Supposed To Be There. Americans accepts tens of thousands of gun homicides a year because thats american and slightly cool, pew pew bang bang gunfight at the ok tea rooms. They dont accept a hundred dead kids, because kids are supposed to be "off-limits" to murder and death, just like the whole of the west is supposed to be "off limits" to violence from the middle east

[JoshuaFH]

People keep talking about controlling guns, another guy suggested that if there weren't so many doors in schools it would be easier to screen out potential shooters, but I think everyone is missing the point here.

The real problem isn't guns or doors, if we want to stop school shootings we need to get rid of schools.

DeVos was right?

Genius /s

I know this is meant to be sarcastic and funny, but I think we're approaching the point where liquidating schools might be a good choice in all seriousness. There'd have to be an alternative, obviously, and it would require an enormous cultural shift that would additionally require the removal of deeply entrenched complacency within tradition, obviously, the real question is what it could and should be.

[nenjin]

None of this would be necessary if states hadn’t bankrupted their own education programs. For how obsessed western capitalism is with investing, no one seems to understand it if it isn’t directly translated in to dollars for their pocket.

[redwallzyl]

People keep talking about controlling guns, another guy suggested that if there weren't so many doors in schools it would be easier to screen out potential shooters, but I think everyone is missing the point here.

The real problem isn't guns or doors, if we want to stop school shootings we need to get rid of schools.

DeVos was right?

Genius /s

I know this is meant to be sarcastic and funny, but I think we're approaching the point where liquidating schools might be a good choice in all seriousness. There'd have to be an alternative, obviously, and it would require an enormous cultural shift that would additionally require the removal of deeply entrenched complacency within tradition, obviously, the real question is what it could and should be.

The number one problem behind many of the issues in schools and any parts of government in general is severe lack of proper funding. The american education funding system is first off setup to be unfair and privilege rich areas. In addition funding is perpetually low for most schools and they are run to pump out as many students for as little as possible. This leads to a cyclical cycle of closing schools and stuffing more people into fewer larger schools. The whole thing is just fucked. I happen to have gone to a good well funded public school, coincidentally right next to Betsy's house, so take that as you will.

[McTraveller]

I don't think schools' main problem is a lack of proper funding. I think it's a lack of discipline on how to spend the available funding. Or maybe that's what you meant?

The most effective spending is actually on parental involvement programs.  I'd much rather see that, and a reversal of the recent trend for pay-to-play extracurricular activities, than more computer programs or administrative overhead stuff.

[Hanslanda]

I don't think schools' main problem is a lack of proper funding. I think it's a lack of discipline on how to spend the available funding. Or maybe that's what you meant?

The most effective spending is actually on parental involvement programs.  I'd much rather see that, and a reversal of the recent trend for pay-to-play extracurricular activities, than more computer programs or administrative overhead stuff.

Well the budget for education is constantly being cut while military funding constantly increases. I think the problem is schools do not have enough money.

[redwallzyl]

I don't think schools' main problem is a lack of proper funding. I think it's a lack of discipline on how to spend the available funding. Or maybe that's what you meant?

The most effective spending is actually on parental involvement programs.  I'd much rather see that, and a reversal of the recent trend for pay-to-play extracurricular activities, than more computer programs or administrative overhead stuff.

No, schools in most places are almost totally locally funded. That has been in place of a long time and severely disadvantages poor areas. This is also kind of deliberate for rather unpleasant historical reasons. We need national level school funding.

https://www.npr.org/2016/04/18/474256366/why-americas-schools-have-a-money-problem
https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2017/06/09/531908094/devos-says-more-money-wont-help-schools-research-says-otherwise
https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2018/01/11/577000301/americas-schools-are-profoundly-unequal-says-u-s-civil-rights-commission
https://www.npr.org/2016/05/01/476224759/is-there-a-better-way-to-pay-for-americas-schools

So many problems in society and government could be solved and made more efficient if we properly funded them. The cutting of funding the the name of cost saving is totally counter productive. I have observed its mostly a ploy to sabotage programs.

[PTTG??]

On average, teachers today spend $200 a year buying school supplies that once were paid for by the school.

We definitely have an impoverished school system.

[McTraveller]

No, spending per student has continually increased. Now I know this is an average, so doesn't account for the "wealth divide" in education spending.  But at least on average, US keeps spending more and more per student, with poor outcomes.  It's not a dollar problem - it has to be an effectiveness problem.  Almost like health care, the US spends more per any other nation on education, but we don't have better outcomes.

I mean just read the results from https://www.google.com/search?q=us+per-student+spending+over+time

The US spend tons, but doesn't have much to show for it.

Edit: It definitely is part of the problem that teachers have to spend out-of-pocket for school supplies - where does all the massive amount of spending we have go, if not for school supplies?

[sluissa]

I don't think schools' main problem is a lack of proper funding. I think it's a lack of discipline on how to spend the available funding. Or maybe that's what you meant?

The most effective spending is actually on parental involvement programs.  I'd much rather see that, and a reversal of the recent trend for pay-to-play extracurricular activities, than more computer programs or administrative overhead stuff.

No, schools in most places are almost totally locally funded. That has been in place of a long time and severely disadvantages poor areas. This is also kind of deliberate for rather unpleasant historical reasons. We need national level school funding.

https://www.npr.org/2016/04/18/474256366/why-americas-schools-have-a-money-problem
https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2017/06/09/531908094/devos-says-more-money-wont-help-schools-research-says-otherwise
https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2018/01/11/577000301/americas-schools-are-profoundly-unequal-says-u-s-civil-rights-commission
https://www.npr.org/2016/05/01/476224759/is-there-a-better-way-to-pay-for-americas-schools

So many problems in society and government could be solved and made more efficient if we properly funded them. The cutting of funding the the name of cost saving is totally counter productive. I have observed its mostly a ploy to sabotage programs.

https://nces.ed.gov/pubs2016/2016303.pdf

Not 100% true. It's massively true for the dense and rich areas. Say New York. But outside of those examples, most school districts get the largest chunk of their funding from the state level with local funding usually a moderately smaller chunk. Federal funding is tiny in all cases, yes, but it's not true that schools are "almost totally" locally funded.

[nenjin]

Do some reading on state lotteries, what they say the money is supposed to go towards, and what it actually goes towards.

[Max™]

Plus we've got a rather critical upcoming issue where schools are tuned to pump out people happy to do busywork for vague rewards and thus ready for any number of "lubricating" roles in the economy, essentially all of which will be, are, or have been replaced by automation.

Schools are sold as a place to get "an education" but they seem to be rather more in the business of training rote memorization and basic algorithmic habits. Admittedly I've been out of school for years but I was very disappointed by how easy it was--not that I'm some super genius or anything, I've just got an enormous pile of mostly useless trivia in my head--which was largely because of a weird skill I've developed all my life which makes me a fantastic test taker. Is this a useful skill in the job market? I mean, even if it was, I don't want to be employed as a multiple-choice solver, thanks.

On the other hand, I did really enjoy a brief period I had where I was working on a project in woodshop, but as I was poor I couldn't afford to do anything further there.

Why do I mention that?

Spoiler: Well, that was a missed opportunity in hindsight. (click to show/hide)

A few months ago, maybe half a year at the high end, I got a bug to make some things because I didn't like the looms and needles the missus was using. In the last couple of weeks I took various saws I had and rehandled them because the original plastic or straight wood ones were lame. I think they turned out decently considering it was all done with no patterns and cheap handtools like some chisels, a coping saw, and some whittling knives.

I can apparently just pick up a piece of wood and some tools and see what I want and how to get there, so I should have been woodworking for the last 17 or so years.

Helping kids figure out what they're good at, what they want to be good at, how to explore what they might be good at and enjoy doing, seems a bit more useful than producing average test-takers willing to sit in a cubicle, maybe?

[Frumple]

No, spending per student has continually increased. Now I know this is an average, so doesn't account for the "wealth divide" in education spending.  But at least on average, US keeps spending more and more per student, with poor outcomes.  It's not a dollar problem - it has to be an effectiveness problem.

And the wealth divide is one of the bigger issues involved. We absolutely have lots of schools that are flat out underfunded. We also absolutely have ones that are pissing away cash on shit like overpaying admin or sports facilities or whatever the hell (and hell, there's overlap between the two, too, making funding problems even worse than they would be otherwise). It's both a dollar problem and an effectiveness problem, to varying degrees depending on specific locality. Kinda' have to remember when it comes to schooling, the U.S. is more like fifty separate countries than one single one, and some of those countries are in pretty shit conditions. Comparing its average to a single other country has a mess of problems.

Solutions are a whole barrel of messes, plural, though. Personally starting to get kinda' fond of the idea of saying fuck local budgetary control in the applicable orifice, but even glancing in that direction is going to taking fucking the piece of shit that is the persistently anti-public schooling GOP out of power to even be the glimmer of an option.