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[MetalSlimeHunt]

The President of the United States steps up to bat to defend police brutality, everyone is paying attention, and you think the right move is to say "You're right Donny, let's praise the flag in accordance with the patriot lifestyle. MAGA!"?

I'm afraid I do not have any traction with this view. There are certainly tactics that I would adopt at this particular junction though. Such as refusing to play any games until the NFL owners back down. How many days do you think they'd hold out? Hours? They'd fucking panic. Can't scab your pro football team, or at least you can't get away with it.

[NullForceOmega]

That's some hyperbole there.

I don't give a damn what you think or believe.  Neither does the VAST, VAST, VAST majority of the world.  It's called apathy, and it is absolutely ubiquitous to the human condition at this stage of our civilization.   If you want to influence people you have to do so in ways that don't piss them off, because pissing people off makes them not like you, and actively want you to fail.

Now, if you really just want to whine that the world is unfair and the most politically powerful figure on the planet completely wrecked any chance that this poorly conceived protest had to be effective, then by all means do so, but don't EVEN attempt to insinuate that I in any way support this stupidity.  Stop trying to spin my statements into some kind of :"Sit down, shut up." narrative, because I WILL NOT TOLERATE IT.

[Egan_BW]

You don't care, so you demand that everyone else go not care about it with you, because you just don't care soooooo much.

[NullForceOmega]

No, I want them to act like intelligent human beings capable of reasonable discourse without turning everything into a MY SIDE-YOUR SIDE screaming match.

There was NO CAUSE for this to erupt this way.

[smjjames]

Nor is there any cause for this to end up in a shouting match between you and MSH, NullForceOmega.

I agree, there was no need for the NFL thing to end up this way, but Trump is the one who lit it on fire and kept rekindling it.

[Gentlefish]

...I'll be honest, I can't see where the sudden hostility is stemming from. The 60's were rife with protest marches that absolutely pissed a bunch of people off.

For the minority to get change to happen, they have to make the majority uncomfortable with the status quo. That's where that anger comes from. They want it to stay the way it is, because it benefits them, and to change that is to threaten (or to perceive having threatened) their lifestyle. You can't cater to the majority when you want better change for the minority.

[Reelya]

I thought the US constitution had something in it about freedom of speech? "People have freedom of speech, provided they don't use it to protest against social injustices, and their actions do not hamper profitable businesses."?

Private business, employees, company time. They can demand you say whatever they tell you to say. The constitution only bans the government from passing laws that hamper the free press. And then, it still comes down to the interpretation of that one passage.

e.g. in this case, the NFL is a private business and those are employees. The constitution provides that the government cannot compel either the NFL or the players to conform to any particular speech standard. e.g. there cannot be a law compelling you stand for the national anthem, but there also cannot be a law compelling your employer not to get upset if you don't stand. That's a private matter, and thus not constitutional.

you could stick a Nazi flag up there and tell people to salute it or be fired, and you'd probably be within your "free speech" rights to do so. But you might be charged on an unrelated law such as anti-discrimination laws by Jewish members.

[Dunamisdeos]

While I think I'm more on Metal's side in this one, I have to disagree that a famous NFL player would be ineffective off the field. I think they are certainly capable of garnering attention to their cause, though while it would be as effective is certainly in question.
 
Tim Tebow is a great example/parallel, but his activities never garnered quite this level of national significance, and, let's be honest, the issues at play are of vastly differing gravity. He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Kneeled has turned, in the public eye, into a demand for the NFL to support or oppose his statement. Whether the NFL should take a stand or not is an important topic, but trying to force them to is not healthy. They, and anyone else, certainly have the right to remain neutral if they choose. Banning kneeling for everyone is their only way forward in that regard.

It's interesting to note that the whole thing with Tebow was basically the same argument from the people who disagreed with him. His beliefs were public knowledge, but they didn't want to hear about them. It wasn't ok for him to talk about them, because that made people uncomfortable. In the present case, as Gentlefish stated, that's the whole point.
 
Also, Kneed-to-Kneel stopped doing his thing a while ago. It is absolutely Trump and his more vocal supporters that have made sure this turned and stayed into a ridiculous storm of overblown outrage rather than simply "a guy in the NFL has beliefs and feelings".

[MetalSlimeHunt]

That's some hyperbole there.

The best kind.

I don't give a damn what you think or believe.  Neither does the VAST, VAST, VAST majority of the world.  It's called apathy, and it is absolutely ubiquitous to the human condition at this stage of our civilization.   If you want to influence people you have to do so in ways that don't piss them off, because pissing people off makes them not like you, and actively want you to fail.

Apathy isn't ubiquitous to humanity right now because of chance. It's there by design.

We are depressed as a people, and live in our apathy to accept the world's evils. And so I count even pissing people off as victory. I want them mad. Anger is often the first thing the apathetic are permitted to reclaim as their own. So get mad! The people who aren't mad are the ones not paying attention!

They will hate justice when they see it no matter what package it comes in. The apathetic will always despise justice and the desire for it, because it reminds them that at some point they gave up. They will hate justice today to reach for it tomorrow.

Now, if you really just want to whine that the world is unfair and the most politically powerful figure on the planet completely wrecked any chance that this poorly conceived protest had to be effective, then by all means do so, but don't EVEN attempt to insinuate that I in any way support this stupidity.  Stop trying to spin my statements into some kind of :"Sit down, shut up." narrative, because I WILL NOT TOLERATE IT.

NOT TOLERATE away, baby, because from where I stand that's exactly what you're doing. You might hate Trump or everyone involved, but your advocacy has been manifestly for the players to stop what they are doing. Giving lip service to the idea of doing something else in lieu of this does not change that for all the reasons I've listed in previous posts.

MLK's Letter from Birmingham Jail talks about the poisonous influence of "waiting for justice on a fairer day". Funnily enough, so do the CIA guidelines on disrupting movements. I'm not saying you're a CIA influencer, but I am asking you: How much injustice is sufficient for you to stop not caring and thinking "both sides" could just sit down and come to a hypothetical rational agreement? To decide that on balance, perhaps one side really is right and the other is wrong? What level of injustice is appropriate to stand up against the influence of the POTUS? To do the right thing over the pragmatic thing, whether or not it makes people mad?

Because on police brutality we're pretty much up to every sin short of extermination camps, and even that one is arguable.

If someone actually did go and assassinate an NFL player for kneeling, I have to wonder if you wouldn't come on here and say "see, this is why they should have stopped!", when that thing is to by default provide some level of absolution to the killer for being "provoked" by this frankly milquetoast form of protest. Certainly it would not be the first time that I have seen you specifically enter the conversation to emphasize how much you don't give a shit about anything, man, and how all of these people are equally assholes and should be condemned for...what? Existing? Caring?

[Reelya]

I think however, that without specific goals, the statement of people kneeling during the national anthem won't actually achieve anything. A non-focused generalized "i'm protesting stuff ... in general" vibe doesn't usual achieve anything.

Sure, it's some sort of statement, but it's not a very directed or useful one. With a "blank" gesture you could ask pretty much any sympathetic person what the protest is specifically about, and no two people are going to agree, because they'll just project their own personal gripes onto the gesture.

e.g. is it about police brutality? Because last time I checked, there are no actual federal police in the USA who regularly interact with citizens, so that's a state and county level issue. But saying "well generally in the USA, police are brutal" is not a particularly useful statement for seeing change. But remember, that's just my interpretation of the protest message, and others might project their own interpretation which is completely different.

Another possibility is it's a reaction to Trump's victory: "America elected Trump, so fuck America". Which is ... not clever or healthy if you actually oppose Trump. To beat Trump you need to understand the reasons he got elected. Demonizing those who voted for Trump as merely evil or stupid just plays into their hands because it avoids needing to go look at their actual life situation that caused that to look like a good idea. e.g. the "Trump voters are evil and stupid" line in the sand actually prevents people from crafting messages that have any chance in hell of reaching those people.

[Dunamisdeos]

He did specifically state what it was about, though.

[NullForceOmega]

snip'd

I, really, really, don't understand why this appears to be so hard for you to deal with.  What I am telling you is that you, complaining at me, on this tiny forum, is a complete waste of your time.  I am a nearly invalid stay at home father with no capacity to impact anything whatsoever in this world outside the reach of my own hands, so you trying to 'win' some meaningless argument with me instead of doing something productive is something that only deepens my apathy towards you.

I vote for the people and bills I think can accomplish something for others, because I CANNOT.  I have no money, I have no time, all I have is that one pathetic fucking vote.  You get some goddamn legislation on the ballot and I'll put it to use, but screaming at people online is a complete waste of time if you don't actually have a goal or a plan.

[Reelya]

If someone actually did go and assassinate an NFL player for kneeling, I have to wonder if you wouldn't come on here and say "see, this is why they should have stopped!"

This is pretty damn toxic and it should stop. No name-calling, strawman or outright stating that other posters are the enemies of all that is just and good, just for having a different opinion on an event. e.g. both sides can disagree and there's no need to exaggerate people's positions or equate them with much worse positions to prove a point. I can tell you one thing: it's certainly counter-productive to your own position being taken seriously.

However, having said that, what if that actually did happen, but in general?

e.g. what if, as a result of the protest there's some uptick in inter-racial violence? Is that supportable on the basis that the greater goal is good?

[NullForceOmega]

I agree, I'm out, later guys.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

snip'd

I, really, really, don't understand why this appears to be so hard for you to deal with.  What I am telling you is that you, complaining at me, on this tiny forum, is a complete waste of your time.  I am a nearly invalid stay at home father with no capacity to impact anything whatsoever in this world outside the reach of my own hands, so you trying to 'win' some meaningless argument with me instead of doing something productive is something that only deepens my apathy towards you.

I vote for the people and bills I think can accomplish something for others, because I CANNOT.  I have no money, I have no time, all I have is that one pathetic fucking vote.  You get some goddamn legislation on the ballot and I'll put it to use, but screaming at people online is a complete waste of time if you don't actually have a goal or a plan.

How silly of me, discussing on a discussion forum in this discussion we were having about a thing before the subject shifted to your personal godhead of apathy.

Much as I'd like to fly from my bedroom right now and obliterate Rupert Murdoch, I'm really too tired to employ my psychic might. Maybe next year.

If someone actually did go and assassinate an NFL player for kneeling, I have to wonder if you wouldn't come on here and say "see, this is why they should have stopped!"

This is pretty damn toxic and it should stop. No name-calling, strawman or outright stating that other posters are the enemies of all that is just and good, just for having a different opinion on an event.

Good thing I didn't do any of that. This is a fair analysis of NFO's advocacy that the players should stop kneeling due to credible death threats, combined with my cited observation of how he claims not to actually care about this or other topics while discussing them. No names were called, no men were straw (note the use of "wonder if"), and that last one I think you just imagined.