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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4444858 times)

Madman198237

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Re: AmeriPol: cabinet reshuffle shuffle shuffle
« Reply #19305 on: April 23, 2018, 10:29:50 pm »

I have nothing to say; I'm just posting here so that I can be a part of page 1337, and forever be known as one of the cool kids. Everyone who misses out on this opportunity will eternally be branded a nerd.
You have ruined the dignity and decency of Bay12Forums, forever. And also torn down the few shreds of dignity Ameripol held onto.

Good job, whoever the heck you are.
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Lord Shonus

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Re: AmeriPol: cabinet reshuffle shuffle shuffle
« Reply #19306 on: April 23, 2018, 10:30:41 pm »

One quibble - gun licenses are not universal in the US. There is no Federal provision for them, although many states require one. Personally, I think going to a national licence would be a good thing, as I've advocated before, but there would have to be some sort of reassurance provisions to ensure that this isn't really a slippery slope.

Background checks are nearly universal, and there's plenty of support for making them universally so, but that isn't quite the same thing.

Ah, my apologies; I inadvertently elided two groups By "people who should have guns", I was referring not to the total population of people who are allowed to own and use guns but to the subset who invest a great deal of their self-image and their self-esteem in their gun ownership and perceive themselves to have a positive effect on society by virtue of being legally armed from day to day, as opposed to people who simply use guns for target shooting and so forth and don't carry them around. A good deal of that investment apparently comes from the state having specifically granted them a license, which is why I was referring to it in that context.

Then again, my main source for the mentality of this group is Angela Stroud's "Good Guys with Guns" and a few gun rights activist friends, so I'm loath to make any claims about how populous a subset it is, but I've certainly heard people play the "passing a background check means I needed to be sane and not a criminal and how many of the rest of you can make that claim" card before in the context of background check proposals and gun-free zones and so forth.

Ahh. You meant CCW permits. Your statement makes a lot more sense that way, although it was already reasonable. Never heard of that book, but I know exactly the mindset you're referring to.
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Teneb

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Re: AmeriPol: cabinet reshuffle shuffle shuffle
« Reply #19307 on: April 24, 2018, 04:52:26 am »

I have nothing to say; I'm just posting here so that I can be a part of page 1337, and forever be known as one of the cool kids. Everyone who misses out on this opportunity will eternally be branded a nerd.
You have ruined the dignity and decency of Bay12Forums, forever. And also torn down the few shreds of dignity Ameripol held onto.

Good job, whoever the heck you are.
People who don't use the default ppp are not true bay12ers at all.
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Egan_BW

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Re: AmeriPol: cabinet reshuffle shuffle shuffle
« Reply #19308 on: April 24, 2018, 04:58:16 am »

Oh, looks like I missed my chance to wish everyone a happy 20000th post. :(
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misko27

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Re: AmeriPol: cabinet reshuffle shuffle shuffle
« Reply #19309 on: April 24, 2018, 11:49:06 am »

People who don't use the default ppp are not true bay12ers at all.
Hear hear!

Can we deport them? I'm pretty sure they're taking our shitposting jobs! They're bringing arguments, they're bringing derails, and some, I assume, are good people
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol: cabinet reshuffle shuffle shuffle
« Reply #19310 on: April 24, 2018, 12:28:33 pm »

You asked me why I need 6 gun lockers and a bazooka (especially the bazooka, vote bazooka party 2020) and then the government took your protocols now what ip-tards.
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Reelya

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Re: AmeriPol: cabinet reshuffle shuffle shuffle
« Reply #19311 on: April 24, 2018, 12:39:18 pm »

I've talked about this Catch-22 in this thread before. Gun rights activists oppose a lot of reasonable measures out of fear that they will lead to bans and confiscation, but that very opposition is a large part of why the other side of the argument (for which I can't think of an term for that doesn't implicitly criticize either side) has a tendency to jump straight to bans as the first response to an incident.

It doesn't help that there is a lot of misinformation out there, and there are more than a few "god in the gaps" cases where mockery of one side or the other was mistaken (generally in good faith) as that side's actual arguments.

One quibble - gun licenses are not universal in the US. There is no Federal provision for them, although many states require one. Personally, I think going to a national licence would be a good thing, as I've advocated before, but there would have to be some sort of reassurance provisions to ensure that this isn't really a slippery slope.

Background checks are nearly universal, and there's plenty of support for making them universally so, but that isn't quite the same thing.

I think you need to rethink some of the terms you pull out. What you're calling catch-22 there should probably be called a "viscious cycle", and where you say "god of the gaps" you really need "Poe's Law" or something.

"God of the gaps" isn't really fitting there, at all. A "god of the gaps" argument is one in which you use your pet theory to explain some phenomena, but as alternate explanations are found for parts of it, you say "well all the bits you haven't explained yet - that's totally explained by my original theory - so I was right all along". It's related to the concept of "shifting the goalposts" too.

One area you might see a "god of the gaps" argument in a secular context is in e.g. a nature vs nurture debate. e.g. if someone is a die-hard behavioralist then their starting premise is that 100% of human nature is explained by nurture. But then, you explain one thing to have a biology basis, and they go "ok, i'll accept that in the most limit context possible, but everything else ... completely explained by my original premise". e.g. if you prove that, for example, 10% of variation in sexual orientation is explainable by the fraternal birth order effect (which has strong evidence that it's biological and not social) then a die-hard behavioralist using a "god of the gaps" argument, will turn around and say "ok, biology explains 10% of sexual orientation - but the remaining 90% is clearly social!" The flaw here is that if 10% of something is proven to be caused by one biological cause, then it becomes more likely that additional biological causes will be discovered which chip away at the 90% remaining.

Basically why this is a flawed way to debate is because the person is putting an undue onus of proof on the other side, while absolving themselves of needing to provide evidence. e.g. if you provide evidence that say, 50% of human nature is explainable by biology, then it doesn't logically follow that the remaining 50% "must" be explainable by environment - because that is the "god of the gaps" argument: the person is just assuming their preferred explanation is correct for all cases which lack evidence. But nothing makes my preferred  theory better than your preferred theory, if we both lack evidence, which is why it's a fallacious argument.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 12:56:35 pm by Reelya »
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Lord Shonus

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Re: AmeriPol: cabinet reshuffle shuffle shuffle
« Reply #19312 on: April 24, 2018, 12:55:09 pm »

In this case, "god in the gaps" is the most common example of what I am referring to. As far as I have been able to determine, the "god in the gaps" theory was created to mock religion, but is often presented as an argument of religious people.
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Reelya

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Re: AmeriPol: cabinet reshuffle shuffle shuffle
« Reply #19313 on: April 24, 2018, 12:58:47 pm »

No, it wasn't created to mock religion at all, look into the term, it was coined by Christian theologians to point out the logical flaws in some rival theologians arguments.

And it was quite salient. "God works in mysterious ways" to explain any and everything which has no explanation. In fact, the lack of explanation was taken as proof of God's involvement.

e.g. I've had a conversation where a Christian friend literally said "I just can't see how a single cell could evolve into a human, so it must be God's doing". This is the "god of the gaps" argument in it's wild variety. The slightly more cultivated version is "scientists can't explain X, which proves that God did 'mysterious thing Y' ". It's not a caricature, it's actually a good description of how some people think and argue. And the fallacy here should be clear: as science explains some things, then the die-hard religious person makes claims like "science explains so much, but it can't explain XYZ! isn't that proof enough that God is behind it?" So, the very fact that the "gap" has shrunk is itself used as proof that god fills the rest of the gap - otherwise why would their still be gaps?
« Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 01:13:41 pm by Reelya »
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Teneb

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Re: AmeriPol: cabinet reshuffle shuffle shuffle
« Reply #19314 on: April 24, 2018, 01:30:14 pm »

Reelya, please. Include everything you want to include the first time you post instead of incrementally editing without even noting what is being changed for the following hour after the post.
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol: cabinet reshuffle shuffle shuffle
« Reply #19315 on: April 24, 2018, 01:48:05 pm »

Quote from: Reelya
No, it wasn't created to mock religion at all, look into the term, it was coined by Christian theologians to point out the logical flaws in some rival theologians arguments.

And it was quite salient. "God works in mysterious ways" to explain any and everything which has no explanation. In fact, the lack of explanation was taken as proof of God's involvement.

That is an accurate description of the term.

I have never found it necessary to use lack of scientific proof as direct evidence of the existence of God. It's not a logical argument. The idea that we cannot yet describe every mechanic and natural function of our universe simply means we haven't progressed that far yet. It's not related to God.

Quote
e.g. I've had a conversation where a Christian friend literally said "I just can't see how a single cell could evolve into a human, so it must be God's doing".

I've had this conversation too, and it's mildly frustrating. I'm fine with taking things on faith of course, but the God in the Gap argument goes beyond that and tries to insert God as a crutch for insecurity of the unknown. Wikipedia has a very succinct article on the subject, quoted here:

In his 1955 book Science and Christian Belief Charles Alfred Coulson (1910−1974) wrote: "There is no 'God of the gaps' to take over at those strategic places where science fails; and the reason is that gaps of this sort have the unpreventable habit of shrinking." and "Either God is in the whole of Nature, with no gaps, or He's not there at all."
« Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 01:50:25 pm by Dunamisdeos »
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Trekkin

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Re: AmeriPol: cabinet reshuffle shuffle shuffle
« Reply #19316 on: April 24, 2018, 02:12:05 pm »

Quote
e.g. I've had a conversation where a Christian friend literally said "I just can't see how a single cell could evolve into a human, so it must be God's doing".

I've had this conversation too, and it's mildly frustrating. I'm fine with taking things on faith of course, but the God in the Gap argument goes beyond that and tries to insert God as a crutch for insecurity of the unknown.

Not to mention what an arrogant argument it is. "I can't explain X so it must be God" includes an implicit "and neither can anyone else, now or at any time in the future." It's not even bothering to explicitly discount the possibility that there are knowable things they personally do not know.

There's also the whole question of how detailed an explanation counts as "understanding", since we can generally come up with an unsatisfactory explanation for everything.
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol: cabinet reshuffle shuffle shuffle
« Reply #19317 on: April 24, 2018, 02:29:41 pm »

Quote
e.g. I've had a conversation where a Christian friend literally said "I just can't see how a single cell could evolve into a human, so it must be God's doing".

I've had this conversation too, and it's mildly frustrating. I'm fine with taking things on faith of course, but the God in the Gap argument goes beyond that and tries to insert God as a crutch for insecurity of the unknown.

Not to mention what an arrogant argument it is. "I can't explain X so it must be God" includes an implicit "and neither can anyone else, now or at any time in the future." It's not even bothering to explicitly discount the possibility that there are knowable things they personally do not know.

There's also the whole question of how detailed an explanation counts as "understanding", since we can generally come up with an unsatisfactory explanation for everything.

Could not agree more.

The only gap between science and God is the one we create ourselves, whatever you believe. You believe religion is a man-made construct without basis in reality? Both are of our own creation, and therefore so is the "gap". You believe God exists and passed religious beliefs onto man? Then God created everything he is literally the author of science you unbelievable mook.

This whole nonsensical stigma has seeped into every aspect of society, including and possibly especially politics. It's outdated and wrong.
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FACT I: Post note art is best art.
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FACT III: "All life begins with Post-it notes and ends with Post-it notes. This is the truth! This is my belief!...At least for now."
FACT IV: SPEECHO THE TRUSTWORM IS YOUR FRIEND or BEHOLD: THE FRUIT ENGINE 3.0

Max™

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Re: AmeriPol: cabinet reshuffle shuffle shuffle
« Reply #19318 on: April 24, 2018, 03:27:11 pm »

Ameripol: An endless field of scarecrows
New thread subtitle?
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Jopax

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Re: AmeriPol: cabinet reshuffle shuffle shuffle
« Reply #19319 on: April 24, 2018, 03:31:01 pm »

I'd preffer the waffle shuffle kerfluffle tbh
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