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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4235678 times)

redwallzyl

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Re: AmeriPol: cabinet reshuffle shuffle shuffle
« Reply #18945 on: April 11, 2018, 12:22:06 pm »

Anyways, Paul Ryan isn't running for re-election. Now if Nancy Pelosi wouldn't run for re-election.....

I get that Pelosi is unpopular, but the realities of congressional leadership mean that anyone who replaces her will be just as hated.
The eternal problem of popular leadership. You get all the blame and not much power do actually do things.
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Trekkin

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Re: AmeriPol: cabinet reshuffle shuffle shuffle
« Reply #18946 on: April 11, 2018, 01:20:02 pm »

It ain't really about competent leadership, rather that all the players have very different goals. 
The ones that do 'care', don't want the refugees coming to them.

When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
When all you have is an absolute conviction that you're the only intelligent person on the planet, everything looks like the product of someone else's incompetence. A similar principle applies with moral certitude and the malice and corruption of others.

One might recognize that as the basic con underlying our entire political system: all problems are easily solved, persisting solely because the wrong people are presently in power, and so if you voters in your infinite wisdom merely elect the right people all will be well in short order.
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol: cabinet reshuffle shuffle shuffle
« Reply #18947 on: April 11, 2018, 01:31:01 pm »

Well you know if we didn't elect Trump or acknowledge Alabama's existence we wouldn't have racism or sexism anymore. That's just common sense.
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Max™

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Re: AmeriPol: cabinet reshuffle shuffle shuffle
« Reply #18948 on: April 11, 2018, 05:38:15 pm »

I'm not the only intelligent person on the planet... but I am finding it difficult to disprove the idea that I am the only sane one... which is fucking alarming.
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SalmonGod

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Re: AmeriPol: cabinet reshuffle shuffle shuffle
« Reply #18949 on: April 11, 2018, 06:12:13 pm »

When all you have is an absolute conviction that you're the only intelligent person on the planet, everything looks like the product of someone else's incompetence. A similar principle applies with moral certitude and the malice and corruption of others.

One might recognize that as the basic con underlying our entire political system: all problems are easily solved, persisting solely because the wrong people are presently in power, and so if you voters in your infinite wisdom merely elect the right people all will be well in short order.

Rampantly accusing everyone of succumbing to a plague of self-righteous edgelord-ism isn't really constructive, either, and is itself an evolved form.

There is debate to be had about the nature of corruption in power and politics that isn't founded on the qualities you're projecting.  You can disagree with the ideas that institutions of power attract corruption or that sociopaths naturally float to the top of competitive social hierarchies or the accused relationships between wealthy special interests/media and politics... but you're not addressing any of those things.  Just insulting everyone.
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol: cabinet reshuffle shuffle shuffle
« Reply #18950 on: April 11, 2018, 06:18:38 pm »

He didn't insult anyone, just pointed out that people like that exist, and that world leaders often fall into that trap. Jumping all over it like he was talking about everyone here personally says more about his point than anything else.
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misko27

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Re: AmeriPol: cabinet reshuffle shuffle shuffle
« Reply #18951 on: April 11, 2018, 07:12:03 pm »

In fact, his statements do not make it clear who is the intended recipient of the message, which does obscure its meaning.
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol: cabinet reshuffle shuffle shuffle
« Reply #18952 on: April 11, 2018, 07:32:25 pm »

I think the quote above his statement makes it pretty clear what the context is.
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SalmonGod

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Re: AmeriPol: cabinet reshuffle shuffle shuffle
« Reply #18953 on: April 11, 2018, 07:48:57 pm »

I think it was mainly aimed at PTTG, but the way it was phrased implies to me that it was also meant as a general statement and insult towards anyone who shares a broadly accepted these days general negativity/cynicism towards politics.  It's not like Trekkin is the first person to make the exact same sort of remark with the exact same style of snark (mainiac was the worst about this but there have been plenty of others).  Even if not intended this way, it's an evolved form of self-righteous edgelord-ism that hides itself by doubling back, but projects the same attitude as it accuses - placing oneself amongst the enlightened moderates in comparison to the more numerous self-absorbed reactionary cynics who clearly don't educate themselves before assuming everyone else is more corrupt and incompetent than they.  It's become a bit of a pet peeve of mine.  Note that I had no qualms with people who responded to PTTG with specific objections to his statements and there's nothing wrong with contesting attitudes towards politics in a general way, but I find the approach in question quite tactless and conceited.
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
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Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol: cabinet reshuffle shuffle shuffle
« Reply #18954 on: April 11, 2018, 08:03:03 pm »

I don't think that a statement that we have a problem in blaming all our nation's issues on the leader we don't like today, or that our default mode of discussion is all out attack rather than calm discourse, or that our political parties and the leaders they produce survive solely through whipping the populace up into a tribal frenzy is a self-righteous edgelord thing, or an inaccurate thing for that matter.

Quote
Even if not intended this way, it's an evolved form of self-righteous edgelord-ism that hides itself by doubling back, but projects the same attitude as it accuses - placing oneself amongst the enlightened moderates in comparison to the more numerous self-absorbed reactionary cynics who clearly don't educate themselves before assuming everyone else is more corrupt and incompetent than they.
Quote
there's nothing wrong with contesting attitudes towards politics in a general way

You're literally saying that people can only disagree with politics so long as they don't take a moderate stance, and that a statement to the contrary amounts to a veiled, deliberate personal insult.

Quick Edit:
Salmon I'm sorry I'm not trying to attack you here I generally respect you and the things you say, but I think you've just misinterpreted what he said is all.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2018, 08:22:58 pm by Dunamisdeos »
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FACT III: "All life begins with Post-it notes and ends with Post-it notes. This is the truth! This is my belief!...At least for now."
FACT IV: SPEECHO THE TRUSTWORM IS YOUR FRIEND or BEHOLD: THE FRUIT ENGINE 3.0

misko27

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Re: AmeriPol: cabinet reshuffle shuffle shuffle
« Reply #18955 on: April 11, 2018, 08:29:13 pm »

Anyway... have we discussed the following tweet from this morning yet?
Quote from: no prizes for guessing who
Russia vows to shoot down any and all missiles fired at Syria. Get ready Russia,  because they will be coming, nice and new and “smart!” You shouldn’t be partners with a Gas Killing Animal who kills his people and enjoys it!
Viva la source.

Since I doubt Trump has Reagan's sense of humour, this is probably going to be a thing soon.
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol: cabinet reshuffle shuffle shuffle
« Reply #18956 on: April 11, 2018, 08:33:58 pm »

Wow, really? Ok. I guess I'm not surprised that we are declaring an intent to take military action against another major world power via tweet, but I'm sort of at a loss at the same time.

Also, what does he mean with "smart" in quotes? Are they or are they not? Also I must grudgingly admit agreement with Trump's stance on chemical weapons and the men that use them.

Anyway, did they even confirm that chemical weapons were used this time?
« Last Edit: April 11, 2018, 08:36:29 pm by Dunamisdeos »
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Trekkin

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Re: AmeriPol: cabinet reshuffle shuffle shuffle
« Reply #18957 on: April 11, 2018, 08:35:06 pm »

I read it as a statement regarding the US's foreign policy, and by extension a reflection on the cultural perception of foreign affairs and, ultimately, domestic ones.

Which was how I intended it to be read, so thank you. The "you" in my original post applies as much to our politicians as it does to the general public. Everyone is operating with limited data sets, especially in dealing with international issues as complex and long-running as Syria and its environs. My point was that it's very tempting to think that there exists a perfect solution to all problems if only the right people had enough power, and we inevitably get disappointed when things don't pan out optimally -- and then disappointed again when, years or decades later, we can see in hindsight that things would have gone better if only we'd done something else. We're so used to that disappointment that we campaign around it now because it won't ever go away.

Competent leaders are neither omnipotent solvers of all problems nor magic oracles able to divine exactly what we will in future think they should have done -- and as condescendingly obvious as that sounds, it's sometimes less obvious when we're implicitly expecting them to be, because we tend to assume people know more and have more options than they do. Cynicism towards politics is a fine thing, but if we're going to hold people to account, we would do well to make sure we're accurately gauging the other decisions they could have made rather than blaming them for problems literally beyond their ability to solve without breaking government.
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Madman198237

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Re: AmeriPol: cabinet reshuffle shuffle shuffle
« Reply #18958 on: April 11, 2018, 08:35:38 pm »

Also I must grudgingly admit agreement with Trump's stance on chemical weapons and the men that use them.

Not agreeing with perpetrating crimes against humanity does not, luckily, make one a decent President.

So now we can all go back to happily complaining about the immense political and military stupidity of *announcing your attack plans* in a Tweet, and ignoring this one, brief moment of what might be sanity, because it might just be an attention grab anyway.
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol: cabinet reshuffle shuffle shuffle
« Reply #18959 on: April 11, 2018, 08:37:50 pm »

Also I must grudgingly admit agreement with Trump's stance on chemical weapons and the men that use them.

Not agreeing with perpetrating crimes against humanity does not, luckily, make one a decent President.

So now we can all go back to happily complaining about the immense political and military stupidity of *announcing your attack plans* in a Tweet, and ignoring this one, brief moment of what might be sanity, because it might just be an attention grab anyway.

Yeah, all of this sounds about right.

Anyway, I edited my previous post but did they even confirm chemical weapons were used this time? I thought that was still under investigation.
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FACT I: Post note art is best art.
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FACT III: "All life begins with Post-it notes and ends with Post-it notes. This is the truth! This is my belief!...At least for now."
FACT IV: SPEECHO THE TRUSTWORM IS YOUR FRIEND or BEHOLD: THE FRUIT ENGINE 3.0
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