Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[MetalSlimeHunt]

C-SPAN isn't ultra-liberal, it'll just make you wish for death. It's like watching an office powerpoint meeting that never ends and never has any vodka punch or closet sex.

[Frumple]

Least from what I've seen, a bunch of it is just straight from the ground broadcast of junk like congress sessions. Plenty of dry stuff, but it's occasionally interesting. End of the day it's probably one of the better(/less entertainment news) news-y things putzing around american media.

[misko27]

There are situations in which suicide is reasonable (incurable degenerative/terminal disease) but outside of those, no.

This is a purely ideological position. You have justifications, but those justifications don't link to anything else. Yes, the suicidal impulse may be irrational; are you familiar with the stock market? Something which runs on what Keynes memorably called "Animal Spirits" has a huge effect on the country and the world. Being irrational and committed to an irreversible decision does not equal a right to intervene in someone's personal affairs: if it did, we'd probably not have any firefighters or soldiers or mothers.

We should probably make a mental health discussion thread, honestly. Though we may have one lying around. The topic has grown more personal to me these past few years.

Be the change you want to see in the world!

Look, you USians, obviously the saner of us limeys don't call your networks. Even the probably-defined-as-ultra-liberal-MSM C-SPAN network.)

C-SPAN's political position is ultra-boring. Most News stations are far to the interesting/sensational side of the line, while C-SPAN is a hard-boring wing of American Politics. Radical Boredomists run the channel, and their executives probably fantasize about outlawing fun in schools and bringing prohibition back.

Also: The Census will now ask people if they are US Citizens. To be honest, the Census has been low-key a source of anxiety for me, and the slow-moving disaster it's looked like it'll turn out to be could have huge consequences. This is going to make it even worse.

[wierd]

Ultra-radical politician thinking:

Premises--

1) The census exists to provide government with data from the public, so that the government can perform essential functions. (Or at least, functions it considers essential.)
2) To facilitate this, government has mandated that citizens answer all questions on the census, and do so honestly, or suffer consequences.


"AH HAH!" shouts the radical politician. "we can solve so many niggling problems with this!!"

New questions the radical politician asks:

1) Are you a citizen of this country? (If you say no, you get deported! If you say yes, and it is a lie, you go to jail!! If you refuse to answer, you get heavily penalized! Despotic erections ahoy!)
2) Have you committed any crimes? If yes, please list.  (YAY! We dont need to hire investigative police any more except for the narrow task of verifying answers! Remember, if you lie on this, you have committed a crime, and will be punished. If you fail to answer, that too is a crime, and will be punished!)
3) If you answered yes above, please list the items you have served sentence or paid reimbursement for. (Cant be serving double jeopardy here. Again, if you lie, you are immediately committing a crime, and failure to answer fully and truthfully is also a crime.)

......

I think you get the idea here.  Who ever thought it was a good idea to allow the government to compel people, under penalty of law, to have to answer questions in this kind of modality in the first place?  Clearly, they were either 1) malicious despots, or 2) FUCKING RETARDS.


I can just *FEEL* the apologists now....

"Oh, that 5th amendment thing? Yeah- that applies to 'citizens', which if you are here illegally, do not apply to you. So, if you say 'no' to the "are you a citizen" question, your rights have not been violated in respect to our compelling you to admit to your not being a citizen, even if you are here illegally. If you say YES, and you are not actually a citizen, we now have grounds to prosecute you for lieing on the census. (Nevermind that we asked this question to create a strawman we can flail about in political jousting matches, so that we could specifically delineate which kinds of things are true of non-citizens against things are true of proper citizens, so that we can then feel confident denouncing them publicly to scapegoat noncitizens. No, that is not malicious nor evil in any way, why ask that?) I mean, government HAS to have good and valid information to make reasonable decisions, right?"

Really.  The census should be limited to:
How many people live in this house?
How many are married?
How many are children?
Of the adults, how many are employed?
What is the gross income of this household in aggregate?
Of the children, how many are school age?
How many are in public schools?

AND THATS IT!!
All the 20 other pages of FUCKING MORONIC HORSESHIT in the census does not need to be there, and the US can get that data more reliably any number of other ways.

There should be no overt penalty to lieing to the census taker, other than not getting a well functioning government. (Welcome to civics assholes!)
As such, there should be no "enforced by threat of legal violence" demand for compliance.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

The good news is that the 72-year seal on census records, including between the Census Office and any other government body, is still in place and would be immensely difficult to dislodge. Further, I think it is likely that even conservative courts would consider such a program as compelling you to testify against yourself.

The immediate problem is that the census, which already has an issue with ghost children and unreported children, is only going to get more inaccurate as this citizenship debacle drives illegal immigrants, legal immigrants, and even citizens to avoid it.

[Maximum Spin]

Like 95% of the people I know ignored the last census anyway

[wierd]

Lucky you.

Do you know about the American Community Survey?

Because the census is not just every 10 year anymore, and has not been for a long time. No no no. The encroachment of the census as a means to force people to self report all kinds of really detailed things about themselves has been going on for a very long time.

I get one of these fucking things almost every other year. "Random" my hairy white ball sack.

You get fucking HOUNDED if you dont fill it out.

[Maximum Spin]

Lucky you.

Do you know about the American Community Survey?

Because the census is not just every 10 year anymore, and has not been for a long time. No no no. The encroachment of the census as a means to force people to self report all kinds of really detailed things about themselves has been going on for a very long time.

I get one of these fucking things almost every other year. "Random" my hairy white ball sack.

You get fucking HOUNDED if you dont fill it out.

Fascinating. I've never seen one.
Anyway, yeah, census should be outlawed.

[Rolan7]

Huh, they've apparently already been asking if people are of "Hispanic, Latino or Spanish" origin.  Then in the next question they asked your race, heh.
They also simplified it a lot in 2010, down to 10 questions, with others going to that American Community Survey mentioned weird mentioned.

Considering that they guarantee the information is anonymous, I wouldn't be too worried.  If that sounds naive, there's also the fact that 1970 was the last census where anyone was even fined for refusing to answer.

But this is a crazy administration, so maybe the census bureau has been subverted into acting as a branch of ICE.  And this complete 180 somehow wasn't on the list of things leaked from the sieve we call an administration.

No, I wouldn't really be upset.  Undocumented immigration is one issue where I do believe in "accelerationism".  The status quo, undocumented people living in fear and taking illegally low wages due to their status, is only good for corporations.  Trying to preserve that situation is misguided.

Unless you're a state that relies heavily on such second-class citizens for labor, I guess.  Like California.  Then it'd be profitable to take an extreme stance against *enforcement* of immigration controls.  Theoretically.

[wierd]

Since I seem to be *blessed* with being tasked to report every fucking gallon of gasoline I use, watt of electricity I use, how much I spend on groceries, and a bunch of other "REally? WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU WANT TO KNOW FOR!?" questions all the damn time by Uncle Sam, I can say this with conviction.

If you refuse to answer the survey, expect your mailbox to practically explode with dire warnings, reminders, and then notices of when a census agent will arrive to in-person administer the questionaire, along with harrasing phone calls demanding you fill it out. (Except it is not 'harassment', because it is the government doing it.)

Seriously, next time I get one, I am gonna scan all 20 pages of it (Yes. 20 PAGES) and let you guys read it.

[wierd]

Here we go, last year's ACS form.

https://www2.census.gov/programs-surveys/acs/methodology/questionnaires/2017/quest17.pdf

Now, given that it is totally possible to de-anonymize data, given sufficient number of datapoints-- look at the number of datapoints they are collecting, and realistically tell me that they can "Guarantee" anonymization?

Especially considering the degree of specificity they are going for in this questionaire.


Also: Notice question number 8, under PERSON.
Not only do they ask if you are a citizen or not-- if you say NO, they want your year of alien registration.

[Rolan7]

This information on the ACS *is* very interesting, since I wasn't aware of it at all.  Thanks, since I might get selected for it someday!

But uh, the issue is a question being proposed for the decennial census.  Which had 10 questions in 2010, rather than 20 pages, so anonymizing shouldn't be as much of an issue.

Edit, the questions: https://www.census.gov/history/www/through_the_decades/index_of_questions/2010.html

[wierd]

The ACS is officially part of the Census.  It just isn't the 10 year census.

[smjjames]

Here we go, last year's ACS form.

https://www2.census.gov/programs-surveys/acs/methodology/questionnaires/2017/quest17.pdf

Now, given that it is totally possible to de-anonymize data, given sufficient number of datapoints-- look at the number of datapoints they are collecting, and realistically tell me that they can "Guarantee" anonymization?

Especially considering the degree of specificity they are going for in this questionaire.


Also: Notice question number 8, under PERSON.
Not only do they ask if you are a citizen or not-- if you say NO, they want your year of alien registration.

If they are just going for number of people, that seems excessive. The type of housing seems like a reasonable question, but the rest of the stuff even employment doesn't seem neccesary and is obtainable by other means.

Theres also that seemingly random question 15 asking about sales of agricultural products inside the section asking aboout housing. About the only reason I can think of that would be there in that specific spot would be asking about marjuana.

[wierd]

Nope--- Farmer's markets. They want to know how much produce you sold at a roadside stand, or how many fresh eggs you sold your neighbors.

And yes-- I agree-- it is a bunch of horse shit that they dont need to be asking, and can find out more reliably other ways. (See about 6 posts prior, where I said exactly that.)