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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4466756 times)

Bumber

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17505 on: February 26, 2018, 02:49:57 am »

I have a potential solution to the gun crime problem, (itself an extension of improper gun ownership)---

People who buy guns, and live in/near a city, need to log X hours of range time with that hardware each month, or the feds come and take it.  Make it something reasonable, like 12hrs in a month period. (Thats 3 hours every week during the month; about a nice shooting session at the range every weekend.) It makes owning multiple firearms arduous, and people that buy guns because of small penis syndrome will quickly tire of the requirement. People that actually have a need for a firearm will benefit from the practice using it.
That range time has a monetary cost in bullets. It also requires enough free time. That is a disproportionate burden on the lower class.

Not to mention the bureaucratic cost of verifying the logs for every single gun owner.
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Rolan7

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17506 on: February 26, 2018, 02:50:15 am »

I'll also repeat my assertion that we did just fine hunting with bow & arrow.  Anything more was invented purely for the purpose of making it easier to kill human beings.  Might make it easier to hunt, also, but not necessary.  Not unless you're hunting especially large, aggressive creatures, which very few people in the world at this point should be doing.  Most are endangered.
I mean, a proper bow will do you in just as well as a deer.  Might even penetrate plate, if it's a longbow wielded by a strong individual who trained in marksmanship rather than simply volley.
(I do miss the more brutal, more personal days of volley and steel, which is why my upcoming Chronicles of Amber game is... Well, it certainly *starts* without gunpowder, duh.  And that is nice.
Because if someone is going to murder you, it seems slightly better that they do it to your face.
Not for them.  For them, it probably scars them.  Maybe they reconfigure into a more brutal worldview...  I am not a psychologist.)
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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17507 on: February 26, 2018, 02:52:25 am »

Eh, an uzi was just the first machine-gunny semi-auto (ish) assaulty weapony type of gun that I thought of off the top of my head.
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PTTG??

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17508 on: February 26, 2018, 02:59:34 am »

I have a potential solution to the gun crime problem, (itself an extension of improper gun ownership)---

People who buy guns, and live in/near a city, need to log X hours of range time with that hardware each month, or the feds come and take it.  Make it something reasonable, like 12hrs in a month period. (Thats 3 hours every week during the month; about a nice shooting session at the range every weekend.) It makes owning multiple firearms arduous, and people that buy guns because of small penis syndrome will quickly tire of the requirement. People that actually have a need for a firearm will benefit from the practice using it.

There is precedent for that. It's probably not still on the books, but for centuries men of fighting age were legally obliged to practice archery in Britain.

In fact, seeing as that is sound regulation of armed civilians, I'd say that the 2ed actually compels the state to make such a law. It's hardly a well-regulated militia if its weaponry is gathering dust in the nightstand.
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SalmonGod

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17509 on: February 26, 2018, 03:01:28 am »

I mean, a proper bow will do you in just as well as a deer.  Might even penetrate plate, if it's a longbow wielded by a strong individual who trained in marksmanship rather than simply volley.
(I do miss the more brutal, more personal days of volley and steel, which is why my upcoming Chronicles of Amber game is... Well, it certainly *starts* without gunpowder, duh.  And that is nice.
Because if someone is going to murder you, it seems slightly better that they do it to your face.
Not for them.  For them, it probably scars them.  Maybe they reconfigure into a more brutal worldview...  I am not a psychologist.)

Sure, it will.  I imagine it takes more training and effort, though.  I've shot targets a few times - handguns and small caliber rifles.  Not nearly as much with a bow, but enough to realize I'd need a lot of practice to accomplish as much with it as I did in a very short time with a gun.

I'm not a psychologist, either, but I'm also of the opinion that a weapon that requires dedication and is more personal (both in how familiar you have to get with it and in the nature of confrontation it necessitates with another person) is also less likely to be used recklessly.  Same idea as people insisting that guns are safe so long as people are properly trained in how to use and keep them responsibly.  Except guns don't require that training to make them dangerous nearly as much more primitive weapons do.
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17510 on: February 26, 2018, 03:07:02 am »

A bow in the hands of an incompetent user is very dangerous for anyone nearby.

If they knock the arrow on the wrong side, for instance, it tends to fly out to the side. :P
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17511 on: February 26, 2018, 03:10:32 am »

I have a potential solution to the gun crime problem, (itself an extension of improper gun ownership)---

People who buy guns, and live in/near a city, need to log X hours of range time with that hardware each month, or the feds come and take it.  Make it something reasonable, like 12hrs in a month period. (Thats 3 hours every week during the month; about a nice shooting session at the range every weekend.) It makes owning multiple firearms arduous, and people that buy guns because of small penis syndrome will quickly tire of the requirement. People that actually have a need for a firearm will benefit from the practice using it.

There is precedent for that. It's probably not still on the books, but for centuries men of fighting age were legally obliged to practice archery in Britain.

In fact, seeing as that is sound regulation of armed civilians, I'd say that the 2ed actually compels the state to make such a law. It's hardly a well-regulated militia if its weaponry is gathering dust in the nightstand.

Except England had a legit need for those men, and I'm not sure how mandatory military service would go over for people. Yes, we've had the draft in times of need, but I'm pretty sure that we've never had any sort of mandatory years in the military service as some countries do.

Besides, as bumber said, it'd be a bureaucratic eldritch nightmare, and the documentation system that is already in place is extremely hobbled as it is.

If you're gonna throw red tape at gun ownership, a less extreme version of what Japan does would be the way to go.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2018, 03:14:16 am by smjjames »
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wierd

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17512 on: February 26, 2018, 03:21:46 am »

I am of the opinion that if Visa and Mastercard can track every time you swipe your card, then there is no legitimate reason why the fed cannot track the swiping of a similar card for gun owners when purchasing ammo, or using a firing range.

Aside from, you know-- the PURPOSEFUL clusterfuck caused by the NRA, and the GOP when it comes to gun registration.


(And the fact that it is time consuming on the part of the owner to have to log time at a firing range is BY DESIGN. Humans have finite free time-- It forces people to evaluate just how much they *really* need that firearm. Firearm ownership is added liability, not a fucking perk. The sooner, and the more people that come to accept this, the better we will be in terms of gun crime.)
« Last Edit: February 26, 2018, 03:26:15 am by wierd »
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Starver

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17513 on: February 26, 2018, 07:02:47 am »

Three hours a week seems excessive, however the idea has some value.
This would be the Well Regulated Militia, as per 2ndA.

To forestall cries of "but that puts us in the hands of the gubmint that our militia might at some time need to overthrow!", make each qualifying militia-centre a separated-from-state organisation somewhere between the current "club of Good Old Boys that meets in the woods to shoot" and National Guard levels of official involvement, that aims at better oversight than the thing with churches that also needs fixing. Perhaps an oversight panel drawn up as a league-of-militas with the power to refuse (group) memberships of the scheme and public transparency of decisions in place (with recourse to the public court system to keep the panel away from inbred cliquiness) rather than a Three Letter Agency moulding their decisions.

Though the ATF/etc would naturally be there to deal with those who opetate outwith the system (and for all business deemed not relevent to the militia-membership issue that they currently need to enforce).


And I see no problems with this suggestion! Surely there'd never arise a 'shadow armed resistamce cooperative' behind the scenes...  Right?
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MorleyDev

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17514 on: February 26, 2018, 07:15:19 am »

I mean, a proper bow will do you in just as well as a deer.  Might even penetrate plate, if it's a longbow wielded by a strong individual who trained in marksmanship rather than simply volley.

Fun little fact, there's records of western colonists losing battles with local populations because bows could out-fire, out-range and out-accuracy the musket rifles they used. We didn't switch to guns because they were better weapons at the time, but because you could train people to use them a hell of a lot faster than the comparative lifetime it takes to learn the bow.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2018, 08:37:01 am by MorleyDev »
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Loud Whispers

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17515 on: February 26, 2018, 09:01:43 am »

Fun little fact, there's a lot of records of western colonists losing battles with local populations, because bows could out-fire, out-range and out-accuracy the musket rifles. We didn't switch to guns because they were better weapons at the time, but because you could train people to use them a hell of a lot faster than the comparative lifetime it takes to learn the sword and bow.
Yes but also no. It wasn't the musket's fault ;P
So one of the important issues regarding native archery was its arrows: Stone-tipped arrows were not as effective in warfare as they were in combat. Once they start importing iron from European merchants, this of course changes, as iron-tipped arrows gave them significant advantages when fighting against native rivals or colonists. However, this also brought them into contact with guns, and when given the choice between purchasing guns or sticking with archery, they picked guns. Evidently training was not an issue for native archers, as the training of a native archer started with his grandfather, but they nevertheless picked guns.

When native archers fought colonists using muskets, they often had a higher rate of fire, accuracy and range than the colonists.
When native musketmen fought colonists using muskets, they often had a higher rate of fire, accuracy and range than the colonists.
When native riflemen fought colonists using muskets, they often had a higher rate of fire, accuracy and range than the colonists.

Keep in mind, in Western Europe the bow went obsolete around the late 1500's, when the musket still remained inferior to the longbow. It had superior power, accuracy and rate of fire in the hands of a skilled archer, but it was simply easier to outfit and train larger masses of musket infantry who could accompany pikemen. The erosion of the available pool of skilled archers (as training starts with the grandfather!), the depletion of good yew with which to make longbows, gradually made it more and more apparent that the musket in spite of its deficiencies was going to replace it. By the 1700s the gulf between firearms and bows had been closed, multiple balls could be loaded in each shot which with longer barrels, solved the accuracy issue. And unlike arrows, lead balls could not be dodged or deflected by brush, and they were certainly very scary weapons. The invention of a rifled barrel tips the scales heavily in favour of the firearm.

The differences in the attitudes of the respective sides lay in the quality and doctrines of the respective soldiers and their equipment. The European colonists were largely agrarian peasantry, who hailed from countries where the governments kept them disarmed in order to keep them docile. They were not very well-practiced in shooting at marks, and when it came to warfare, its soldiers were trained to fire in volleys and close combat. This is why the European colonists still favoured the musket when the rifle existed besides it; the musket could fit a bayonet, the rifle at the time could not. They practiced for a conventional European war, which was largely useless against native skirmishers, who with the use of snow shoes, canoes, camouflage and effective tactics (rather resembling modern infantry fire team tactics), could inflict damage upon their enemy and force their withdrawal, or else themselves withdraw should the enemy charge or deploy cannons. The native Americans were skilled hunters, thus whether they used bow, musket or rifle (and they eagerly adopted the rifle, where the European colonial militaries were skeptical), they had years of experience before they even applied their skills to warfare. Where the European colonists were trained to maintain unit discipline and fire volleys at the enemy, native infantry were already skilled in the practice of shooting at individual targets. The consequence would be as long as confrontation with European forts and cannon were avoided, and mobility maintained, native infantry had nearly all superior advantages in combat.

The reason why they still lost in the end can be seen in the American civil war, where the side which had the superior marksmen lost to the side which had the superior industry and logistics. American forces had access to railways, cannons and steamers in a way which native forces could not replicate. And while native forces could exploit colonial rivalry to procure weapons, gunpowder and munitions from the French, British, Spanish or Dutch, when the USA begins flexing its arms and muscling away European influence - native ability to procure gunpowder is severely restricted. The invention and mass production of repeating rifles, and their adoption by the US military or its frontier colonists, in addition to the adoption of native tactics learned from native allies, led to material conditions which rendered ultimate victory unattainable.

Thus while the statement that guns replaced bows owing to the difference in training is true of Western Europe in the 1500s, it's not so true elsewhere in geography or time. In places like the steppes or China, they had sufficiently large pools of skilled archers that they only replace them in warfare in the turn of the 1900s, when Russia and the European maritime powers begin utilizing the first modern rifles and cannons. States like the Ottoman Empire are also cool examples, because they had successfully retained skilled archers over utilizing musketmen, until massed casualties in their naval campaigns of the 16th century wiped out too many of their archers for all of them to be replaced. Ignoring the technological innovations which had by then, made the musket the superior of the crossbow, there is another reason which perhaps contributes to the bow's replacement by both sides. It takes a strong and skilled man to use the kind of longbow which still conferred advantage over a musket. Yet in the hands of a weak man, or tired man, unskilled man, boy, peasant, hunter, sick man or injured man, a musket ball remains as deadly every time. And once you start training marksmen and snipers, you're better investing the large quantities of time you need to train a sizeable body of accurate infantry

sluissa

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17516 on: February 26, 2018, 12:25:56 pm »

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Baffler

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17517 on: February 26, 2018, 12:46:37 pm »

Three hours a week seems excessive, however the idea has some value.
This would be the Well Regulated Militia, as per 2ndA.

To forestall cries of "but that puts us in the hands of the gubmint that our militia might at some time need to overthrow!", make each qualifying militia-centre a separated-from-state organisation somewhere between the current "club of Good Old Boys that meets in the woods to shoot" and National Guard levels of official involvement, that aims at better oversight than the thing with churches that also needs fixing. Perhaps an oversight panel drawn up as a league-of-militas with the power to refuse (group) memberships of the scheme and public transparency of decisions in place (with recourse to the public court system to keep the panel away from inbred cliquiness) rather than a Three Letter Agency moulding their decisions.

Though the ATF/etc would naturally be there to deal with those who opetate outwith the system (and for all business deemed not relevent to the militia-membership issue that they currently need to enforce).


And I see no problems with this suggestion! Surely there'd never arise a 'shadow armed resistamce cooperative' behind the scenes...  Right?

Whenever I hear the phrase "well-regulated militia" used as an argument in favor of restricting firearm ownership I immediately wonder if the speaker actually knows what they're talking about. The full text is "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." How, from this, you could possibly take away "civilian gun ownership should be heavily restricted for those not a part of government sanctioned paramilitaries" is frankly beyond me.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2018, 12:48:11 pm by Baffler »
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Loud Whispers

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17518 on: February 26, 2018, 01:08:20 pm »

Whenever I hear the phrase "well-regulated militia" used as an argument in favor of restricting firearm ownership I immediately wonder if the speaker actually knows what they're talking about. The full text is "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." How, from this, you could possibly take away "civilian gun ownership should be heavily restricted for those not a part of government sanctioned paramilitaries" is frankly beyond me.
Didn't the USA fuck up by placing the security of their free state in the hands of a state military in lieu of their dank beans militia? Has the militia then not been replaced in purpose, thus rendering a militia unnecessary to the security of a free state. The de facto precedence already lies in the US state consolidating weapons and armour in the hands of your paramilitary police

smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17519 on: February 26, 2018, 01:13:11 pm »

Whenever I hear the phrase "well-regulated militia" used as an argument in favor of restricting firearm ownership I immediately wonder if the speaker actually knows what they're talking about. The full text is "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." How, from this, you could possibly take away "civilian gun ownership should be heavily restricted for those not a part of government sanctioned paramilitaries" is frankly beyond me.
Didn't the USA fuck up by placing the security of their free state in the hands of a state military in lieu of their dank beans militia? Has the militia then not been replaced in purpose, thus rendering a militia unnecessary to the security of a free state. The de facto precedence already lies in the US state consolidating weapons and armour in the hands of your paramilitary police

I'm sure we all wish we could ask the founders just what they meant by militia.
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