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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4452449 times)

EnigmaticHat

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17280 on: February 16, 2018, 02:42:01 pm »

Paradoxially though, the Republicans talk up a storm blaming mental illness and yet want to decrease funding for the very things that would do what they say they'd like to do.
Mental illness isn't responsible for school shootings.  If nothing else, there are places on Earth other than the US that have terrible mental health services, yet we're the one place on Earth with recurring problem with school shootings.

IMO its challenging to attribute the rise in the 90s to any kind of motive increase.  There was a crime wave in the 80s, attributable probably to either lead paint* or cops withdrawing from "bad neighborhoods".  Since IIRC the early 2000s that crime wave has been receding, likely do to a reversal of either or both of those trends.  So I don't think we can say that the jump in the 80s/90s is due to increased motive to carry out school shootings, because if mental health or general rage is the problem, it should have receded alongside the poisoning that causes brain damage and anger.  The phenomenon of school shootings (in the indiscriminate murder sense, not gang violence sense) should have been present in the 90s mostly in poor inner city schools were social problems, lead poisoning, bullying and access to mental health services was the worst.  So... why is it almost always white people from well off families?  It doesn't line up with the mental illness or bullying theory.

If I have to point to anything it would be access to guns.  To quote a long past Cracked article, you can't shoot up a school with a musket.  The American civilian gun market is primarily composed of two groups: hunting and old west-esque guns (bolt action, lever action, revolvers, shotguns), and run off from the military's stock.  The first group is difficult to conceal and not great for killing more than a couple people.  The second group is perfectly fine for mass murder, but the civilian market is always a couple decades behind the military market.  Some vets might keep their service weapons or similar for old time's sake but a military veteran will understand proper gun ownership.

So for purposes of school shootings, I'd say the civilian market is a good 20-30 years behind military small arms.  In the 60s and 70s you have WW2 surplus, but you can't carry out a school shooting with a M1 Garand.  And I could be very wrong (I don't know that much about the gun market, take anything I say about it here with a grain of salt) but I believe handguns were not standard issue for privates in WW2, only for officers.

So to my eyes what we're seeing here is school shooting effective weapons entering the civilian market.  What weapon did we have in the 60s that's really deadly in civilian hands?  Semi-automatic handguns.  They flood the market in the 80s, and are made more mainstream and attainable by their popularity in the police force.  US gun laws make it very easy for legitimate and "grey" market guns to slip through the cracks and fall into the hands of people without licenses.  So presumably the amount of semi-auto handguns out there increases a little bit every year, as people buy them from gunshows or get them from friends/family, and they never are destroyed or go back into the legit market unless states set up a buyback program (which is rare).  This would line up with school shootings increasing every year.

It would also line up with the lack of school shootings in inner cities; gun laws tend to be more strict in cities, and while professional crooks might have military surplus weapons, casual grey market gun ownership is very difficult for black people.  Cause unlicensed gun ownership doesn't get caught on its own, it gets caught when cars and homes are searched for other offenses (usually drug related).  Who gets randomly pulled over?  Not white people.  Additionally if your kid is going to a school infested with gangs and you leave a loaded glock in an unlocked drawer, its pretty clear that one way or another your child is getting taken away from you.  So I imagine even a distracted/low-education parent in a "bad neighborhood" would avoid doing that.  And obviously a drug dealer or gangster isn't going to let some 15 year old steal their gun, if nothing else because they need that gun to protect themselves from rivals.  So while there are guns in the poor inner cities of America, there's not that same mass of unaccounted for grey market guns floating around where kids can easily find them.

Now this year we're seeing the effects of more modern military weapons entering the civilian market.  The Los Vegas shooting and now this both used AR-15s.  They were out there before, but I guess they were rare enough that someone who wanted to use them just happened to not get them.  There's also less of an opportunity with AR-15s because they're almost impossible to conceal even with a backpack (presumably you could disassemble it but some snot nosed teen who isn't supposed to have it and doesn't want the FBI to catch them might not have looked it up), so that's even less opportunity for something like this to have happened.  This has caused some renewed interest in the phenomenon of mass shootings, and its increased this years' bodycount to record highs, but at the end of the day it doesn't change anything.  Enough people spray handgun fire into a crowd and they'll still make the bodycount go up each year; it'll be slower than what an AR-15 could do but its still unacceptable.

The other thing that I would point to is the copycat effect.  News media gives legitimacy and voice to school shooters.  Some angsty teen posts a manifesto on livejournal, no one cares.  But if they go and shoot up a school, they don't even have to write a manifesto.  Someone will write it for you and plaster it over every TV screen in America.  As the fascination with killers increases, so does the glorification.  Hence continuous increase over time in the number of school shootings.  The other thing I would point to is Dick Wolf.  All of his shows have a single, consistent narrative pounded in again and again over hundreds of episodes: "there are bad people in the world and they need to be punished."  Its not even about criminals because a recurring theme in those shows is the bystander who the cops can't arrest but still has their hands dirty because they mistreated someone who went on to commit a crime.  Its such an aggressive theme, and so prevalent across our media.  Then you have reality TV, which has its own consistent narratives: either "the US has moral decay" or "the US is full of idiots."  That's not necessarily the intended takeaway from the show but that's what people THINK about shows like Jersey Shore and Keeping up with the Kardashians and the showrunners started pandering to it pretty early on.

And so for someone who has that super repressed/angry "the world is full of corrupt sheeple and I'm the only smart/moral person, and I'm being wronged again and again" attitude, American TV and culture doesn't try to convince that person they're wrong.  It tells them they're right.  Our TV programming is telling our people "you should do something about all those dumb assholes in the world, and if you do, we'll hold you up as worthy of study."  This lines up with the demographic of killers.  What other group of people has cultural encouragement for mass murder?  Islamic teenagers and young adults.  ISIS puts up radicalizing info on the internet because they know someone will bite and they have experience radicalizing people on their home turf.  Its not just that Islam has violent teachings; all Abrahamic faiths do.  And its not just that Islam is a minority religion subject to discrimination and bullying.  If that was the case, Jews should have been carrying out mass shootings throughout our history.  They aren't bullied everywhere but they are bullied in some places.  But its not about bullying.  The radicalizing materials are are out there for Islamic and arab individuals and mainstream American audiences are not receptive to that.  This lines up with the Charleston terror attack; white nationalists had their own radicalizing materials.

And so the way I see it, what you need is two things.  You need access to guns, and you need radicalizing materials.  Cause here's the thing.  There are countries in the "third world" where black market gun ownership is common, in fact their are plenty of places on earth where the government cannot keep order and the standard is that local militias and neighborhood watches take the place of a police force, and they're generally armed.  The entirety of the "third world" has become armed, its about the only thing Metal Gear Solid gets right about world politics.  So why don't we hear about the school shooting in Ethiopia?  Like there are stable developing nations out there where gun access is very possible, yet they aren't a warzone or failed state.  And you still don't see kids shooting up schools in those places.  And yeah that's possibly because people are a little better about gun storage.  But I doubt that's the whole story.  The way I look at it, those people don't have commonplace internet access.  People who live in rural areas without access to modern infastructure take their cultural and moral cues from their family and community.  Morality structures that value filial loyalty and community duty don't give people a pat on the head for attacking their neighbors.  Even if your neighbors are terrible people, you suck it up.  And so what I'm getting at here is, yes radical islamic online content can make a mass shooter.  And violent alt-right rhetoric can make a shooter.  But I would argue that CNN, Fox, MSNBC, Law and Order + L&O:SVU, CSI and all its spinoffs, those are radicalizing materials as well.  They're just not nearly as intense.  But most people people don't go on some shifty ass website with bad formatting and domain name you've never heard of so that they can read about how christians/gay people/people of color are a disease.  Most people do watch mainstream American TV.

*it was banned at that point but the very young are most vulnerable to lead paint, so in the 80s the affected got old enough to be dangerous
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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17281 on: February 16, 2018, 03:00:18 pm »

Yeah, and this culture of "But I'm a good guy I should get everything" that the media shoves down everyone's throats with the guy-gets-the-girl story over and over again in movies and shows is giving the kids unhealthy states of mind. They believe that they are owed a girl, owed money, owed certain things for acting certain ways. Hence the incel culture and the MRA rising to push against progressive movements they're afraid of "taking away" the things they believe they are due for their behavior.

It's honestly nurturing a culture of toxic masculinity and these kids are exploding when their world comes crashing down on them and they realize their actions have consequences and the world will not give them what they are taught it will.

Dunamisdeos

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17282 on: February 16, 2018, 03:50:42 pm »

I mean, it's not just masculinity. Disney has been teaching for generations that if you are a woman and are pretty and popular enough (or really just match Walt's favored eugenics profile) everything will simply fall into place around you. It's what's supposed to happen.

Really our entire culture revolves around the concept that you deserve rewards for things that you didn't achieve but instead were born with or given. By extension, the people who don't already have advantages don't deserve them.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2018, 03:59:44 pm by Dunamisdeos »
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Gizogin

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17283 on: February 16, 2018, 05:28:33 pm »

I would say a good solution to this problem is a simple process requirement:

Before you can deport, you MUST get the country you are deporting *TO* to acknowledge citizenship of the person being deported.

In the case of naturalized US citizens, their foreign citizenship status would often be rescinded (dual citizenship is not as common as people tend to think, since there are requirements to getting US citizenship, which often involves renouncing, formally, foreign citizenship.), meaning that asking the proposed "drop off" country would result in a "Nope, not ours any more." response pretty much all the fucking time, and this is by design.  People that are here illegally, would have a "Yup, totally ours-- we have citizenship documents on file that are active for this person." response.

Remember, sending people to another country where they are not citizens thereof, is the same as forcefully exporting people to that country illegally--- EG, in this case, ICE is actively involved in the business of transporting illegal migrants to countries that do not want them.

Just imagine if Mexico did something like this, and started sending people it did not like to the US border en-mass.  I am fairly certain it would not be popular. Why does our country think this is a good idea? Because we are fucking pretentious asshole morons, that's why.

Okay, I know I'm a little bit late to this party, but the renunciation of foreign citizenship during the naturalization process doesn't actually mean a lot by itself. For example, I obtained US citizenship after my parents went through the whole naturalization process. Because I was under eighteen at the time, I obtained US citizenship automatically; I never had to make any sort of renunciation of my UK citizenship, so I now have dual citizenship.

For that matter, saying that you'll give up ties to your country of origin to a US immigration official has no actual influence over your citizenship with that country. To actually renounce your UK citizenship, for example, you have to apply for its removal to the UK government. Doing so is not a requirement of the US naturalization process, so my parents didn't do it; they're still UK citizens as well. While the US doesn't officially recognize dual citizenship, they basically don't care if you have it, either.

In more recent news, the Russia investigation has charged 13 Russians with interfering in the 2016 election. I guess Frumple has already made mention of this, which I didn't see until I started typing this post, but I'm in too deep now to stop. At this time, they have made no allegations against any US citizen, but the investigation is also not finished yet. This is, if I'm not mistaken, the first tangible result that the investigation has produced; everything else so far has just been calling people in for questioning and then remaining tight-lipped about the results.

Our president's takeaway? "The Trump campaign did nothing wrong!" Oh, and he called the Russian campaign "anti-US". The same campaign that has been charged with trying to get him elected. Am I reading too much into it to think that Trump just stated that he agrees that, at the very least, the Russian campaign thought that he would be the worst presidential candidate the US could elect?
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17284 on: February 16, 2018, 05:39:02 pm »

Oh, the indictment didn't point at any americans itself, but we did have one guy (over in cali, iirc) that's pled guilty to knowingly assisting either some of the indicted or something related, or something along those lines. So just this opening volley on the election interference front has managed to catch a citizen, too, if indirectly.

E: Oh, though no, there's been tangible results so far, just not on the election interference end. We've had some plea deals/guilty verdicts on other fronts already.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2018, 05:41:16 pm by Frumple »
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misko27

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17285 on: February 16, 2018, 05:56:21 pm »

Indictment is interesting. Probably won't lead to a trial any time soon, given Russia won't give them up, but it's a good first step for other reasons.
I mean, it's not just masculinity. Disney has been teaching for generations that if you are a woman and are pretty and popular enough (or really just match Walt's favored eugenics profile) everything will simply fall into place around you. It's what's supposed to happen.
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17286 on: February 16, 2018, 06:17:34 pm »

Oh, the indictment didn't point at any americans itself, but we did have one guy (over in cali, iirc) that's pled guilty to knowingly assisting either some of the indicted or something related, or something along those lines. So just this opening volley on the election interference front has managed to catch a citizen, too, if indirectly.

E: Oh, though no, there's been tangible results so far, just not on the election interference end. We've had some plea deals/guilty verdicts on other fronts already.

The main word Rosenstein used was 'unwittingly' which is entirely possible given how the campaign was so amateurish and naive and doing things they really aren't ethical, but not all of their actions come off as completely unwitting. The meeting with the Russian lawyer? Definetly naive and ignorant, and a terrible idea for many reasons, but unwitting? Or Trumps comment about asking the Russians to hack Hillarys emails? Sure, maybe he was being an asshole, but only he can really tell what his motivations were, just being an asshole or really was trying to ask the Russians for help. If he didn't think they'd do it, then that's just terrible naivete on his part.

The Russians are still meddling around and will definetly try to screw with the 2018 elections, doubly so for the 2020. I keep wondering when we'll give them a metaphysical (and phorical) punch to the face to get them to stop.

There is definetly no doubt that the Russians took advantage of the naivete and ignorance, but I'm not convinced it was entirely unwitting on the part of the Trump campaign. It'll be up to Mueller to try and figure out whether it was due to profound naivete and ignorance (and general self-corruption) or there really was some level of collaboration/collusion.
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17287 on: February 16, 2018, 06:24:31 pm »

I mean, he did use unwittingly, referring to more than just the trump campaign... and then we more or less immediately got news of someone (the probably cali critter I mentioned) that admitted to otherwise :V
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misko27

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17288 on: February 16, 2018, 06:40:59 pm »

Oh, yeah, and Romney is running for the Senate.

It was expected for a month now, but it's official now. He's almost guaranteed to win (he's running in Utah), so Romney will likely be heading to the Senate. Interesting.
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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17289 on: February 16, 2018, 07:25:33 pm »

Sure, maybe he was being an asshole, but only he can really tell what his motivations were, just being an asshole or really was trying to ask the Russians for help. If he didn't think they'd do it, then that's just terrible naivete on his part.
Or he thought they would do it regardless.
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smjjames

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17290 on: February 16, 2018, 07:27:53 pm »

Sure, maybe he was being an asshole, but only he can really tell what his motivations were, just being an asshole or really was trying to ask the Russians for help. If he didn't think they'd do it, then that's just terrible naivete on his part.
Or he thought they would do it regardless.

Point still stands, only he can really say with certainity what his motives were.
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17291 on: February 16, 2018, 07:40:48 pm »

Mind, it's questionable how much that matters. Beyond reasonable doubt is the bar for criminal conviction, and everything beyond that has a strict requirement of a fair bit less :P
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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17292 on: February 17, 2018, 01:30:11 am »

My favorite bit is that Trump has been saying for many months that the Russians didn't meddle in the election (after all, Putin told him that, and Vlad wouldn't lie).

Now he's like "they were doing it long before me, it's not my fault, no collusion". I like the comedian who pointed out that Trump says "no collusion" the way a dumbass fratboy says "no homo".
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Re: AmeriPol: Russia investigation sheneinighans
« Reply #17294 on: February 17, 2018, 06:03:51 am »

I think those sorts of speculations are close to useless.

FBI must get a ton of tips, leads and questionable statements on social media they could chase up. Only a few of them turn out to be relevant to a future crime. Only the benefit of hindsight lets us reprimand them for not following up the exact lead that turned out to be important.

In reality, if the FBI aggressively chased up every potential future wrongdoing, you'd live in a Minority Report type police state, and people would be bitching about how the FBI is constantly over-stepping the bounds. And in that situation, the FBI would have stopped that guy, but nobody would care, because nobody really thinks about what didn't happen.

So how does the FBI benefit from saying "we dun fucked up"? They benefit because now they'll be loosened on the leash to investigate more things about everyone - and that will include people who go onto commit massacres, but a whole lot more people who don't.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 06:17:44 am by Reelya »
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