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[Sheb]

Haha, I'm not saying spay and neuter the poor, it was a metaphor.

Mind you, I'm not saying don't, either. I'm neutral on the issue.

Hello, I'd like to propose some horrible policy and then refrain from defending them, because "I'm just neutral".

[EnigmaticHat]

Haha, I'm not saying spay and neuter the poor, it was a metaphor.

Mind you, I'm not saying don't, either. I'm neutral on the issue.

People are going to have kids and people are going to have sex.  Its human nature to have more kids when you're poor and less when you're rich, for reasons that have nothing to do with rational decision making.  And like really, you want to tell me someone with bad life circumstances shouldn't have sex?  Or even kids.  A lot of people who are poor or otherwise in a bad place don't expect it to get better; you can't just put your dreams on hold forever because your life isn't perfect.

[Maximum Spin]

Hello, I'd like to propose some horrible policy and then refrain from defending them, because "I'm just neutral".

The only horrible policy I proposed is that people should not have children they can't afford. I continue to maintain this position.

We do that for the same reason people regularly butcher cats in DF.  We hate having stray cats everywhere.  Not because we think the cats "deserve" better or some moral bullshit.

shrug I don't know who you've been talking to but there 100% definitely are activists who promulgate spaying and neutering stray cats because they consider the birth of stray kittens to be effective animal cruelty.

People are going to have kids and people are going to have sex.  Its human nature to have more kids when you're poor and less when you're rich, for reasons that have nothing to do with rational decision making.  And like really, you want to tell me someone with bad life circumstances shouldn't have sex?  Or even kids.  A lot of people who are poor or otherwise in a bad place don't expect it to get better; you can't just put your dreams on hold forever because your life isn't perfect.

Lots of things are human nature. That doesn't make them good ideas. And... yes. I will tell you that. If you don't expect your bad place to get better, do not put more people into that place. It is your goddamned duty to humanity to suck up your sorrow about not having kids because children do not exist for your personal therapy.

[EnigmaticHat]

That sounds a whole lot like giving up.

Most people are not geographically mobile.  If they live in a bad place in all likelihood they were born in a bad place.  The viewpoint you're expressing only makes sense if people believe they themselves should never have been born.  That's not going to be a popular perspective.

Also, again, the USA went down the road of sterilizing poor people before.  It was awful and useless.  What you're suggesting is the same thing you're just suggesting that it be done via social pressure rather than chemicals.  Which like... sure, that's nowhere near as bad, but its still awful and useless.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

What one advocates for regarding children or none is nearly irrelevant under current circumstances. Our society is organized in such a way that makes children a burden, as such, people increasingly avoid having them. Which is part of what makes the current anti-abortion push so potentially disastrous - if successful it would likely provoke an economic collapse five or ten years after the fact.

[Maximum Spin]

That sounds a whole lot like giving up.

Most people are not geographically mobile.  If they live in a bad place in all likelihood they were born in a bad place.  The viewpoint you're expressing only makes sense if people believe they themselves should never have been born.  That's not going to be a popular perspective.

Also, again, the USA went down the road of sterilizing poor people before.  It was awful and useless.  What you're suggesting is the same thing you're just suggesting that it be done via social pressure rather than chemicals.  Which like... sure, that's nowhere near as bad, but its still awful and useless.

I'm not even suggesting that. I'm suggesting that people should understand their circumstances and voluntarily choose not to have kids they can't afford. Of course this will never happen, but that's not my problem. The choice to continue along the path to an unsustainable Malthusian hellscape is entirely their own.

[Doomblade187]

One roadblock to that choice is the availability of cheap effective birth control. Add in the public health benefits of birth control and you have prominent damaging effects from limiting access. This article (skimmed) sheds a fair amount of light on numbers and causes.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2835625/

[redwallzyl]

Malthusian

This is not how that actually works in reality you know? Malthusian collapse is not actually a danger at all in reality. You are putting forth a circular argument predicated on assumptions about the poor that are common in American culture. What you are proposing is the inflicting of structural violence on a disenfranchised group "for their own good and the good of society." I also see a strong tendency toward what I have see before and recognize as one group deciding without any actually investigation or consolation with the effected group what needs to be done. This never works, this is literally an extension of the way the West treats developing countries. We know whats best so do what we say. Cut that shit out now.

You are literally textbook for me as an anthropology student as an example of what not to do.

[Maximum Spin]

"I don't recommend having children who are themselves already lost"

inflicting of structural violence on a disenfranchised group

uh huh.

You are literally textbook for me as an example of why people have lost respect in academia.

[Reelya]

Malthisian hellscape? In the USA, people don't even have enough kids to replace the previous people, let alone headed for an overpopulation crisis.

In fact, during recessions, the birth rate drops. So this suggests "having more kids than you can afford" is not really a big driver of population: while poorer people have slightly larger families than wealthy people, when they have financial difficulties the birth rate drops.

The actual story here is that working class people have enough kids to replace the last generation, while rich people don't have enough kids to replace themselves. There's no over-population crisis, there's a lack of births crisis in the new white-collar upper classes.

(average fertility rate is 1.84 in the USA, you need about 2.1 to replace the existing population each generation).

[redwallzyl]

"I don't recommend having children who are themselves already lost"

inflicting of structural violence on a disenfranchised group

uh huh.

You are literally textbook for me as an example of why people have lost respect in academia.

your challenging well established anthropological theories now? You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

[Doomblade187]

*pours cold water on thread*

[Maximum Spin]

Malthisian hellscape? In the USA, people don't even have enough kids to replace the previous people, let alone headed for an overpopulation crisis.

If it wasn't clear, that was sarcasm in the form of intentional exaggeration. While not a Malthusian hellscape, though, having kids they can't afford does keep people poor, and then produce another generation of poor people, while the fact that rich people reproduce below replacement rate means their wealth becomes concentrated over generations, ie, it's a good thing for them.

your challenging well established anthropological theories now?

uhhh yup, sounds like it. It's not my fault if some anthropologists are batshit.

[Madman198237]

*pours cold water on thread*

Insert Mythbusters helicopter-tanker-vs-oil-fire scene here.

But seriously, I agree.

[Max™]

I was starting to get annoyed but then I remembered dude said he was 25: just old enough to think he's not a kid and has shit figured out, not old enough to actually recognize when they're horribly wrong about that.

Heck, I went through a weird paleolibertarian stint almost 20 years ago too, it happens to the best of us, the worst of us never grow out of it.