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[Reelya]

Actually, Star Trek is a good example of sci-fi that adhere to actual Marxist values: it's post-automation / post-scarcity, so nobody has to work, they have careers because they want to have careers, while healthcare, housing, food and other services are provided on an as-needed basis, and because of these things, money effectively ceases to exist.

Marx's credo for communism was "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" which is basically how the economy in Star Trek works.

So basically, it's pretty easy to see how even American society can be morphed into a Marxist type communist nation merely by appealing to the values of "the future" as espoused in shows like Star Trek, which ironically, is seen as the most American thing ever, despite living in a post-capitalist world where everyone works for the common good without physical pay.

[smjjames]

Outside of DS9 though, we don't see a whole lot of civillian life outside of shipboard stuff, and in DS9, currency (in the form of latnium bars, though I think creds may have been mentioned) is still used for some things like trading.

Since Star Trek doesn't really show it in the context of everyday civillian stuff (because it'd be mostly boring for TV and wouldn't be why people watch Star Trek) as bartering would still happen (yes, using money to buy things is a form of barter) to trade stuff, it's not really a full picture of what it would look like.

As long as people have the desire to exchange or obtain goods, money or some form of barter isn't going to go out of fashion. Money (in whatever form) is just too useful. At least until it's value bottoms out.

Speaking of, I'm surprised Venezuela hasn't reverted to some sort of barter economy given their problems with money.

[EnigmaticHat]

In Star Trek they can pretty much make whatever they want at the press of a button.  Its like modern 3D printers on steroids.  They can also experience whatever they want using the holodeck.  There was a one-off gag implying that a crew member used the holodeck to have sex with counselor Troi; while she seemed offended, no one seemed to think it was against regulations, which would seem to imply they're all getting holo-laid whenever they want.

Course, we don't know how much civilians have access to that tech.  The extreme common-ness of the fabricators (IIRC in next gen every crew member has a personal one in their room to make food for them) would seem to imply that its not super exotic tech.  The holodeck... probably is cutting edge, especially considering how often it seems to critically malfunction and trap people inside/have its safeties disabled/produce sentient beings.  But its not confirmed that every colony doesn't have its own.  I mean, its not like it would be wasted, that would go a long way to keeping people happy out in space.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

America has, since the very beginning, been a vicious bloody competition between ideals of liberty and ideals of profit. I've always had a sneaking suspicion that the Red Scares and the like are because of a recognition on some level that leftist ideas fit in way too well with American culture and would become very powerful very quickly if not under suppression. This is how you get things like the old Socialist Party just sort of steadily uprising, cultural dissonance with Star Trek, and the baby boomers looking away for three years and then looking back to find the millennials decked out in red flags.

[sluissa]

America has, since the very beginning, been a vicious bloody competition between ideals of liberty and ideals of profit. I've always had a sneaking suspicion that the Red Scares and the like are because of a recognition on some level that leftist ideas fit in way too well with American culture and would become very powerful very quickly if not under suppression. This is how you get things like the old Socialist Party just sort of steadily uprising, cultural dissonance with Star Trek, and the baby boomers looking away for three years and then looking back to find the millennials decked out in red flags.

Just a quick observation which will probably die out on further observation criticism: But most of the REALLY old families of Americans did come here specifically at great risk, for specifically great profit. Finding a new unexploited land to make their fortunes with. This was true from Colonial times through much of the westward expansion. More modern immigrant families that started arriving in late 19th, early 20th century and beyond that often came here less of choice and more of "Where I come from is seeing famine/war/persecution and anything is better than that." Thus you have the dichotomy of the people who chose to come here and got rich, and those who were more or less forced to come here and found fewer opportunities. Communism would have appealed to these new arrivals and would have been a danger to the established rich people.

As for the star trek discussion, They've always straddled that line of technology and magic. Where if you leave it unexplained it becomes more magic. And you see that in their economy as well. You'll have the occasional plot device that "can't be replicated"... but more or less everything can be... IF you know how it works well enough to build it. That is the key there. The economy isn't REALLY based on "things" so much as "I know how to build this and you don't, so you'll have to get it from me for the time being." So yes, currency still exists because trade can still exist because there will ALWAYS be people who have something you want but can't produce on your own. Whether that's because of skills they have, or information they possess, or simply because they've managed to hide a very simple process from all eyes.

Current day example: We all have a favorite restaurant who serves something up that's more or less unique to their brand or to their chef. Yet they still use the same ingredients we can all acquire, if we knew the right way to combine and prepare them. It's just easier for us to acquire that favorite food from them rather than try to reverse engineer it and make it ourselves.

[smjjames]

The fall of communist Russia and a lack of any real physical socialist boogeyman/rival has certainly helped socialism become way less toxic. China has the potential to become one if Republicans really wanted to, the rest are either non competitors for power or are our friends/allies.

And yes, I know NK is communist/socialist, but I've never seen it used as a bogeyman against socialism. The boogeyman I usually hear invoked is Europe of all places. Sometimes Cuba when referring to Cuba related things, but it's more often just 'socialism is bad' than saying 'socialism is bad because x country is bad'

[sluissa]

The fall of communist Russia and a lack of any real physical socialist boogeyman/rival has certainly helped socialism become way less toxic. China has the potential to become one if Republicans really wanted to, the rest are either non competitors for power or are our friends/allies.

And yes, I know NK is communist/socialist, but I've never seen it used as a bogeyman against socialism. The boogeyman I usually hear invoked is Europe of all places. Sometimes Cuba when referring to Cuba related things, but it's more often just 'socialism is bad' than saying 'socialism is bad because x country is bad'

It's become less of a "dangerous" opinion to have and more of a "stupid" opinion to have. Back when they were our enemies it was dangerous. Now that the "big bad evil" example has been "defeated" it's simply viewed as choosing the losing side. The side which failed.

[WealthyRadish]

America has, since the very beginning, been a vicious bloody competition between ideals of liberty and ideals of profit. I've always had a sneaking suspicion that the Red Scares and the like are because of a recognition on some level that leftist ideas fit in way too well with American culture and would become very powerful very quickly if not under suppression. This is how you get things like the old Socialist Party just sort of steadily uprising, cultural dissonance with Star Trek, and the baby boomers looking away for three years and then looking back to find the millennials decked out in red flags.

My hypothesis is that the US existed in a land-glut bubble that shielded and delayed exposure to the greatest horrors of industrialization for most working Americans, a situation that only really started to decay after the civil war. In Europe, exposure to the suffering and injustice continuously occurring was inescapable for even the most sheltered classes of people, while America remained this weird almost idyllically backwards society where workers "inexplicably" had far more natural bargaining power countering the various dominating forces that prey on them. The reason for that was really the land; no employer or landlord could wring every ounce of sweat and blood out of their workers in the way the European propertied classes could, because there was always the implicit threat that if life in the east became miserable people could just leave and make an independent living for themselves on a farm granted for free by the government (which they did, constantly, keeping the exploitative qualities of capitalism in relative check). As the free arable land diminished or was taken up by speculators and the federal government grew greatly in power after the Civil War, this cushion eroded, but the idea that America is a special place full of opportunity persisted. People ascribed the difference in material prosperity (among common people) to all kinds of bullshit, like the ideals of the revolution, typical racist ideas about relative "work ethic", democracy and political "equality" (in a time when politics were even more fucked up than they are now), etc etc, something that turned out to be very politically useful when the land ran out and reality descended on the country.

It's the same reason why slavery and indentured servitude were necessary in the new world and almost nowhere else conquered by Europeans. Any capitalist could just stroll to the local poor house and fill their ship to the gills with workers to come labor on a new plantation or whatever in the new world, but on arrival would find that they couldn't keep them employed. Since the workers were not the personal property of their employer, they could just quit the horrible plantation life and go claim a plot to farm, or demand what would've in Europe been considered outrageously generous wages and working conditions to keep them employed. Magically, almost overnight, people previously considered by higher society to be impoverished by their own criminal nature and lack of industry would become upstanding independent farmers of decent character, an anachronism in European societies that had long since eliminated that class of people during the great land reforms coming out of the middle ages.

[smjjames]

And then the US became a world superpower after WWII by merely activating latent industrial might and ended in a clash between capitalism (US) and communism/socialism which delayed the kind of evolving culture clash that we're seeing now.

@MSH: More like 30 years, not three years.

[Loud Whispers]

Tbh the reason why USA is averse to communism is because it is so warm. If you want communism you need cold weather.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

*looks at snow falling*

*feels turn signal handle fall out from cold alone*

*latitude of chilly Morocco*

Yeah...warm...

[smjjames]

Tbh the reason why USA is averse to communism is because it is so warm. If you want communism you need cold weather.

*points at Cuba, Venezuela, and Vietnam*

[Loud Whispers]

Tbh the reason why USA is averse to communism is because it is so warm. If you want communism you need cold weather.

*points at Cuba, Venezuela, and Vietnam*

No automation, not real communism. Checkmate capitalists

[Max™]

Star Trek is fucked up for so many reasons, not the least of which: why do they keep having to "set phasers to stun" like it's such a hassle or they couldn't have these ridiculously powerful pocket weapons equipped with a basic target recognition function or even just have them default to stun maybe? "Set phasers to fuckoff deathbeam!" "Set phasers to horrific burning to death from the inside out!" "Set phasers to mild concussion and nausea with occasional reoccuring headaches, vomiting, suicidal thoughts, and diarrhea!"

I never went to that dance.

Truly hilarious shit.

[sluissa]

Tbh the reason why USA is averse to communism is because it is so warm. If you want communism you need cold weather.

*points at Cuba, Venezuela, and Vietnam*

No automation, not real communism. Checkmate capitalists

I know Cuba attempted automation. One of the first things Castro did was attempt to industrialize hard with Soviet support. Mechanicized sugar cane harvesters and factories especially. I think they never really got as much support in that area as they expected.