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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4197146 times)

McTraveller

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Re: AmeriPol: Back to work Congress!
« Reply #16155 on: January 03, 2018, 03:18:21 pm »

Definite on the cherry picking.

Re: malthus
Malthus' prediction was based on production and distribution systems of his period. A thing called "the green revolution" happened afterward, and with the help of mechanized farming and nitrogen fertilizers, our ability to grow crops efficiently greatly increased, and our ability to rapidly distribute produce also increased, but we traded one problem for several others. Specifically, heavy dependence on fossil fuel, degrading cropland, and climate change, any one of which means the end is still coming, and malthus was not exactly wrong, just did not have enough data for an accurate top value. Now, because we dodged the bullet once through technical innovation, many believe (wrongly) that we can always do so.  That complacency leads to people foofooing the very real dangers we currently face as a species, while continuing to act irresponsibly.

Re growing wealthy classes:
He bases this in households, per capita, but does not define how they determine 'household'. Does this include renters, people sharing living accommodation (housemates), or even the homeless? If not, how has the percentage of total population shifted compared to household status? What is the average aggregated debt compared to historic levels? Oh, he did not say? Fancy that...

Profit/plunder:
The example of jobs, a CEO who pioneered the "double Irish" tax avoidance scheme and who shamelessly abused government protections (including seeking the barring of competing products in the market (cough, Samsung) via the ftc, is a very poor choice as much of that profit very much is plunder by the presenters own definition. Also, jobs did not invent the Macintosh, nor the iPhone. His role was entirely managerial. Remember that.
Pretty sure, since the slides all quoted the US Census Bureau, that he was using the Census Bureau definition of 'household.'  You can find that easily enough: https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/cps/technical-documentation/subject-definitions.html.  So it does lump housemates together in a 'non-family household' apparently.  I'm pretty sure you can probably find statistics on net worth, not just income. I'd be interested in seeing that actually.

For Mr. Jobs - the example wasn't about the attributions of morality to Jobs as a person, it was a recognizable example of the difference between someone who did actually provide a good or service that was valued by society as contrasted with regulatory capture. People don't usually buy a phone or car or whatever and then get mad that company didn't use part of what they paid for taxes, because they have their phone or car or whatever.  That is, the person paid money for the phone, not "the phone plus whatever government services they get from the taxes that company paid on the profit from that phone".  I mean, maybe some people do that?  But not many.
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Lord Shonus

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Re: AmeriPol: Back to work Congress!
« Reply #16156 on: January 03, 2018, 03:21:04 pm »

Also, jobs did not invent the Macintosh, nor the iPhone. His role was entirely managerial. Remember that.


To be precise, Jobs was banned from interacting with the Macintosh development team because his input on the machine amounted to sabotage (most of his ideas would have led to it being a Lisa-style clusterfuck, and probably killed Apple off - which makes it a pity he was kicked out), which led to him leaving the company entirely. Steve Jobs was nothing but a parasite that managed to take credit for other people's work.
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EnigmaticHat

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Re: AmeriPol: Back to work Congress!
« Reply #16157 on: January 03, 2018, 03:44:50 pm »

Broadly, what I'd say the tax structure needs:

1.  Restructure/replace social security.  Already went on a rant about this.
2.  Fund schools out of the state level, with limits on donations to school related things and a federally mandated maximum per-student funding difference between the lowest and highest funded schools.  So like, the richest public K-12 school in the state should get no more than, arbitrarily, 50% more money per-student than the poorest public school in the state.
3.  Alter our tax structure so that instead of focusing our taxes primarily on MOVING money, we focus more heavily on stagnant money.  So: inheritance tax, corporate tax on profits AFTER expenditures and wages, heavily bracketed income tax thus targeting disposable income instead of necessary funds which will be spent anyway.  Dividends should be taxed as income for the receiving party, investments should be taxed extraordinarily harshly in the short term and then little or none in the long term (I would be OK with a 100% tax on profits made in the first day of an investment; that way you can "undo" an accidental trade, but you can't day trade).
4.  Coronary to the above, we should start minting a little money every year, beyond just replacing existing money.  Minting money devalues all existing money, in exchange for more money in the government's pocket.  It allows you to essentially tax money without knowing where it is.  No offshore haven will hide your money from inflation.  Meanwhile, the little guy, you and me?  We don't hold money for very long.  Small amounts of inflation don't matter to us as long as our pay keeps pace (which it won't, but that's its own issue that isn't about taxes or inflation, we were always going to lose buying power).
5.  Property tax should go into the general city, state, or federal pools rather than into school districts.  Property tax should be small but constant; in an ideal economy, holding property should be a loss, but using it for economic activity should be a gain.  I don't think that balance is practically going to happen, but we should at least try.  Additionally, there should be an arbitrary percentage value picked for rent.  If the monthly rent for a property is below that arbitrary percentage of its overall value, you should be able to deduct the difference out of, at the very least, your property taxes.  That way poor people don't *necessarily* have to foot the bill for property taxes on their apartments.  And they get punished a little less when property values go up.
6.  For big, nationally relevant companies like banks and auto companies, voluntary nationalization should be allowed via the selling of shares to the federal government.  Then nationalization of majority share should be made a condition for major bailouts or generous bankruptcy proceedings.  Especially if corrupt or criminal behavior was involved.  Any company that doesn't play ball, gets chopped up into tiny bits in the bankruptcy proceedings, and every inch of their finances audited for criminal behavior.  "Too big to fail" my ass.  Private city subway systems were too big to fail too, that worked out fine didn't it?  Anyway, while not actually a tax, the federal government can either have its national company pay dividends to shareholders (and thus have a new federal revenue alongside taxes, since the government is a shareholder), or simply resell the shares later when the company's situation has stabilized and take that money out of the national debt.  This would allow the government to step in to prevent a depression like Obama did with the bailout, but still punish the people responsible, and be able to less painfully accept its losses.

Basically?  What rich people want, more than anything, is to use money to make money.  As long as they can do that, simply by having money they continue to have money.  That is the exact opposite of society's interests.  As long as someone can keep a large share of money permanently, their buying power will remain higher than everyone else's.  The result: stagnation, lack of power for everyone else, and skewed production towards luxuries over necessities.  Meanwhile, taxing money that was already going to be spent either way isn't particularly productive.  Since it encourages people not to spend money.  When people don't spend money, the overall value of the economy goes down, AND the tax money goes down, since it was based on the spending of money.  Obviously moving money will still need to be taxed at least a little.

As long as invested money will slowly but surely be devalued, the only way to keep afloat is to work.  Thus, all people will trend towards needing to work for a living.  Obviously anyone with a lot of money will try to fight this.  But you know... still a battle worth fighting even if complete victory is unlikely.

For all of this to work we need a powerful social safety net for the elderly.  The long term saving of money is selfish, anti-social behavior.  But as long as people need to pay for their own retirement, the glorification of personal savings will necessarily continue.
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Lord Shonus

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Re: AmeriPol: Back to work Congress!
« Reply #16158 on: January 03, 2018, 03:48:26 pm »

Have to vehemently disagree with your #5 point. It boils down to "everyone must rent forever, because owning your own home to live in will result in big chunks taken out of your pocketbook". Home ownership should be encouraged, not discouraged.
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McTraveller

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Re: AmeriPol: Back to work Congress!
« Reply #16159 on: January 03, 2018, 05:07:21 pm »

Broadly, what I'd say the tax structure needs:

I like your movie analyses better than your economics... :)

#2 - I'm confused by this one. To check what you mean - do you mean only use state funding (no federal money) but have federally mandated max deviation in funding between schools?  That sounds kind of reasonable, but you'd have to figure out how to make "per student" funds actually go to something meaningful like teacher salaries instead of just building gigantic facilities.  As it is, even things that used to be fairly common in schools - free sports - are now "pay to play" which restricts participation for those that can't afford the team fees.

#3 - I don't agree with this one.  Most money isn't "stagnant" anyway.  But I've posted my thoughts on tax reform elsewhere. I think we just have differing views here.

#4 - what?  I just don't understand what this is trying to accomplish that is different from the existing fractional reserve system.  Also - "the little guy" absolutely does hold savings. I'm getting killed by 0.05% interest on my liquid three-month reserve.  (Yeah, I need to move that somewhere else, I think there are places I could be getting 1% on it...)

#5 - Uh... maybe this depends on location, but the bulk of property tax in my state goes into general state funds but mostly municipal services like police and fire and stuff.  The funny thing is the only way property tax goes to schools is if the property isn't a primary residence, which feels kind of backwards.

#6 - I'm kind of all for the government being able to buy shares of companies and getting revenue from the dividends or whatever.  But I'm not for nationalization; I would cap the allowed ownership at like 10% or something.  (See my previous post about perhaps requiring a 10% 'public share' requirement for incorporation in the first place).

Summary - I'm actually opposed to a system that forces people to have to work to "make it". I really really want a system that instead ensures the improvements in technology mean that you don't have to work as much to maintain a given standard of living.  See my previous comments on issues with the employment laws that associate certain benefits only with "full time" work and then define that work to be a ton of hours. I want to make it so I can get "raises" in increased time off, without worrying about running into the full-time hour limit.
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Lord Shonus

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Re: AmeriPol: Back to work Congress!
« Reply #16160 on: January 03, 2018, 05:42:40 pm »

#3 - I don't agree with this one.  Most money isn't "stagnant" anyway.  But I've posted my thoughts on tax reform elsewhere. I think we just have differing views here.


There's a lot more "stagnant" money floating around than you might think. After a certain point of wealth, the rich have more money than they could possibly spend even on the most absurd luxuries (Bill Gates is a good example here - he's giving money away in massive amounts (far more than even the most hedonistic luxury spending would equal), as well as securing a very comfortable lifestyle, and his wealth still keeps going up), and money becomes as much a way to "keep score" as it is anything else.
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Egan_BW

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Re: AmeriPol: Back to work Congress!
« Reply #16161 on: January 03, 2018, 05:59:20 pm »

Jeez. It's not even that you can't take it with you, it's that you can't have it NOW because you're physically incapable of spending enough. At some point big numbers become meaningless to human life.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: AmeriPol: Back to work Congress!
« Reply #16162 on: January 03, 2018, 06:48:41 pm »

Jeez. It's not even that you can't take it with you, it's that you can't have it NOW because you're physically incapable of spending enough. At some point big numbers become meaningless to human life.
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WealthyRadish

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Re: AmeriPol: Back to work Congress!
« Reply #16163 on: January 03, 2018, 07:13:45 pm »

Summary - I'm actually opposed to a system that forces people to have to work to "make it". I really really want a system that instead ensures the improvements in technology mean that you don't have to work as much to maintain a given standard of living.  See my previous comments on issues with the employment laws that associate certain benefits only with "full time" work and then define that work to be a ton of hours. I want to make it so I can get "raises" in increased time off, without worrying about running into the full-time hour limit.

This is one of the most visible criticisms of capitalism, that the application of technology, science, and large scale industry in reducing the amount of labor required to produce goods has generally speaking resulted in people working more for a simultaneously smaller share of the social product. I think a criticism that's more apparent would be capitalism's (historically nearly unique) ability to furnish permanent extremes in poverty and opulence side-by-side, even during times that would be described as prosperous. A third criticism that waxes and wanes in popular consciousness (for obvious reasons) would be the recurring recessions and depressions, which seem historically unique to specifically industrial capitalism (with very few examples available in pre-industrial capitalism and none in earlier systems).

Of course, criticism on its own almost demands a better alternative to be treated as valid, and doesn't account for possible benefits, but these are points that are at least quantifiable and historically verifiable, as opposed to the more philosophical criticisms about the exact definition of a slave, justifications and repudiations about the ethical basis for private property, and so on.
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McTraveller

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Re: AmeriPol: Back to work Congress!
« Reply #16164 on: January 03, 2018, 08:20:50 pm »

#3 - I don't agree with this one.  Most money isn't "stagnant" anyway.  But I've posted my thoughts on tax reform elsewhere. I think we just have differing views here.


There's a lot more "stagnant" money floating around than you might think. After a certain point of wealth, the rich have more money than they could possibly spend even on the most absurd luxuries (Bill Gates is a good example here - he's giving money away in massive amounts (far more than even the most hedonistic luxury spending would equal), as well as securing a very comfortable lifestyle, and his wealth still keeps going up), and money becomes as much a way to "keep score" as it is anything else.
What do you mean by 'stagnant' money?  I think we mean different things.  Yes, the ultra-wealthy are not spending their money.  But it's not just sitting in a giant money-bin somewhere either.  Their wealth is generally always tied up in a hopefully appreciating asset - it's in shares of a company, or real estate, or something.  That is, the money is being used to make more money... it's not "stagnant".
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol: Back to work Congress!
« Reply #16165 on: January 03, 2018, 08:41:52 pm »

Lot of those investments don't really do anything, though. They're sitting there appreciating but they're not, say, producing a service or dongle of much note, actually housing anyone (or if it is, massively inefficiently so far as people with shelter goes), paying workers (more), and so on. Hell, sometimes they're being leveraged to actively prevent that sort of things. Fundamentally barely any of the money is doing much outside a pretty limited slice of the population, if even that much.

It's stagnant in the sense the amount of hands it's passing through (which is a major part of most active economies) are few, and often hella' limited vertically in regards to what part of the population(s) in question it touches to boot (see: recent industry comments about intending to pass absolutely nothing they get out of the tax scam on to their workers). When part of the money pool isn't swirling around, you get stagnant money. It's maybe not 100% stagnant in every way, shape, or form, but it's pretty still and the effects barely touch the parts of the economy people need to, like. Live and be happy in large numbers and such. Broadening the analogy out to resources as a general thing takes more effort than I got in me at the mo', but it's not that hard to do, I don't believe.

Basically the whole "trickle down doesn't" dealio, really. Money spent by a poor bastard goes all over the place, up and down and sideways (so long as someone doesn't stick it in a pillowcase or offshore bank account or shell company or whatevs, anyway). Chunk of the money rich bastards spend doesn't get around much, which means it's not benefiting many people, either. Money making money more or less does kinda' sod all for most folks, heh. Which generally tends to be pretty undesirable (or eventually unfortunate for many someones).
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EnigmaticHat

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Re: AmeriPol: Back to work Congress!
« Reply #16166 on: January 03, 2018, 09:36:19 pm »

Most money spent on investments just sits around waiting to be sold so someone else can wait to sell the shares/company/etc.  The initial investment matters, after the first sale less so.  Investment has become the new bank deposits.  The money keeps pace with inflation.  Its not really being spent most of the time.

Again, the initial startup funds for a company do get spent by the company.  Ditto for the first time it goes public.  After that... the money isn’t really doing anything for the company.  Aside from giving shareholders control over it.

I might have to think about property taxes a bit.  I’m not totally confident on that point.
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McTraveller

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Re: AmeriPol: Back to work Congress!
« Reply #16167 on: January 03, 2018, 10:23:25 pm »

Ah, ok, you are using 'stagnant' in terms of velocity of money.  Then yes, I agree that in the US at least the velocity of money is indeed pretty low these days.

I don't think that's the whole picture though - you don't have to have a high money velocity to have a healthy economy. You just need a "high enough" one.

Basically the whole "trickle down doesn't" dealio, really. Money spent by a poor bastard goes all over the place, up and down and sideways (so long as someone doesn't stick it in a pillowcase or offshore bank account or shell company or whatevs, anyway). Chunk of the money rich bastards spend doesn't get around much, which means it's not benefiting many people, either. Money making money more or less does kinda' sod all for most folks, heh. Which generally tends to be pretty undesirable (or eventually unfortunate for many someones).
So simply stated, it's not how much money is spent, but on what types of things money is spent, that matters?  I mean, really, what does "Money spent by a poor bastard goes all over the place, up and down and sideways" mean compared to "Chunk of the money rich bastards spend doesn't get around much"?  Is it because the rich are just spending piles of money in big loops with each other, essentially merely extracting rent from the "lower classes" instead of producing new goods and services?

Actually when I say it that way I would sort of agree with that - which is why several posts ago I mentioned that thing about taxing rental and interest income higher than wages.  In more detail, a landlord probably only passes on a very small portion of rents to other folks, just maintenance items really.  Whereas "a poor bastard" is going to spend essentially all their non-rent money at retailers, which pays a fair bulk of that revenue to another "poor bastard", etc.
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol: Back to work Congress!
« Reply #16168 on: January 03, 2018, 11:51:15 pm »

Cheers for that, assuming things end up sticking.
Ah, ok, you are using 'stagnant' in terms of velocity of money.  Then yes, I agree that in the US at least the velocity of money is indeed pretty low these days.

I don't think that's the whole picture though - you don't have to have a high money velocity to have a healthy economy. You just need a "high enough" one.
Oh, sure. High enough is more or less baseline, with higher mostly being icing. As functionally static wages (vis a vis purchasing power) for massive swaths of the US labor market, among all sorts of things, suggest, though, we probably don't have high enough so far as... most everyone, really. At the least lots of people. Are concerned, heh.

Economy generally isn't reasonably or often called healthy when bunches of it aren't metaphorically feeling better as time goes on, from what I've noticed. Healthier than it could be, most definitely, but there's a reason "better" isn't particularly equivalent to "good". The best king of the most wonderful shit mountain is still enthroned in a mountain of shit, et al. Though that's at least a bit hyperbolic relative to the state of things stateside... mostly. There's places 'bout as fucked up as anywhere on earth.

Quote
So simply stated, it's not how much money is spent, but on what types of things money is spent, that matters?  I mean, really, what does "Money spent by a poor bastard goes all over the place, up and down and sideways" mean compared to "Chunk of the money rich bastards spend doesn't get around much"?  Is it because the rich are just spending piles of money in big loops with each other, essentially merely extracting rent from the "lower classes" instead of producing new goods and services
Yeah, you pretty much got it.

Sorta' reminds me of that old naivety that workers would be paid more as they became more productive. Industry has been laughing long and hard on that subject for a good while now. When folks pay more in or put more out and get little to nothing from it, we tend to start pulling out pretty negative descriptors, ha.
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martinuzz

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Re: AmeriPol: Back to work Congress!
« Reply #16169 on: January 04, 2018, 12:10:11 am »

So apparently that dude who called in that fake 911 call is being charged with a felony case of false alarm, and being extradited to Kansas. He'll likely face additional charges in Kansas; probably felony murder, which would be a very easy case to make.

Good, I hope he gets put away for a few decades
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