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[Maximum Spin]

Yes. That diagnosis is inherently good and helpful, barring misdiagnosis. I can look at what is known about a condition and make further decisions about medication or management. I had the medication available, but used it at my own discretion. To be clear, I went from primary care->specialist->behavioral specialist, and was properly diagnosed. Whole lot of misdiagnosis during that time. And I have absolutely known others who felt they needed the meds to cope, so I'm not saying there's no place for the meds.

For reals, are you really saying a diagnosis has no benefit outside of medication? Because you've said that a few times, and it seems super important to clarify. Only point I'm going for here is that a diagnosis without medication can still be super helpful.

No, no, what I'm trying to convey is that the science of psychiatry hasn't reached a point where you can predict anything from a diagnosis. The diagnosis is just a pile of symptoms; misdiagnosis only means that you were presumed to have symptoms you really didn't, or symptoms you did have weren't noticed. And the actual construction of diagnoses revolves around medication, as the only thing that really separates one set of symptoms from another vaguely similar one isn't the cause or implications - because we have no idea about those - but "what medications usually help". This doesn't mean that medication is the only purpose of the diagnosis, it just means that medication is a crucial factor in defining what the diagnoses are.
Meanwhile, and separately, it's impossible to have a mental disorder that doesn't need to be treated somehow, because the need for treatment is defined as a criterion for diagnosis. Medication is as good a form of treatment as any – quite literally, just about any treatment for mental disorders seems to work exactly as much as any other – and therefore a perfectly reasonable thing to provide in response to a diagnosis. If you don't want treatment – and it seems like Ispil's brother didn't need treatment of any kind – then you technically can't have a diagnosis.

[Helgoland]

What makes you think that social workers / nurses, and psychologists are not professionally trained scientists? Okay maybe they did not study medicine AND psychology, but they did at least one of those, or a pedagogic studies. Well, maybe the nurse is one gradation below university.

"Maybe a rope."

[EnigmaticHat]

if you bother to get a diagnosis for something for your kid, the presumption is that it's affecting his life significantly – that's actually a necessary diagnostic criterion for most psychological disorders, in fact – and therefore that you want to do something about it. If they didn't actually want medication, your parents were really wasting everyone's time by bringing it up in the first place.

More likely, a caregiver ordered it done. I had that happen to me in 2nd grade - the teacher told my parents that I'd be expelled if I didn't get a Ritalin prescription. The shrink told them there was no basis for one, and prescribed an absurdly low dose that I didn't really need to take.

Again, drugs shouldn't be the first resort to fix behavior problems. It speaks more to the lack of the teachers ability to deal with it than the kid.

From my own experience, I will say that drugs should be the first resort for ADD (provided you're confident its ADD).  The thing about ADD is you can have the best lifestyle choices and organization of anyone in the world, but you won't be able to hold to it without drugs.  Every kid in my school was given a planner to write down homework in.  All the adults in my life pushed really hard for me to use this thing, to the point where they were being vaguely mean about it, and I never would.  Flash forward to me getting medicated and suddenly I buy a planner and start planning every single thing, even things most people wouldn't need to plan.

IIRC therapy is also considered mostly useless for treating all forms of ADD.  Although depression and anxiety disorders are highly co-morbid with ADD so you could treat that I guess.

That being said, since kids are bad at describing their problems (and susceptible oft-unintentional pressure from adults), some light occupational therapy or life coaching might better to start out with.  Its unlikely to help ADD (or at least whichever type of ADD I have), but if the kid's problem was never ADD to begin with it could make their school problems go away.

I could write a wall of text about why I think ADD treatment is messed up.  I disagree with its primary categorization as a learning disability.  There are a lot of people out there undiagnosed either because poor school performance is expected (minority kids, "bad apples"), or because they're out of school.*  Poor school performance is the most obvious symptom, but it wasn't the worst thing about my ADD.  The best way I can describe it is you can see clearly what you want to do and what you need to do but you can't do it.  Its like fighting your own brain and consistently losing.  Its a different feeling than depression, but its like depression in that it touches every aspect of your life.

*most western European healthcare systems not only have a smaller variety of ADD meds, but they further restrict the type of meds you can test once you're an adult.  This is very bad, because not all meds work on all people.

[Gizogin]

"Some of these things are deadlier than arsenic at the right dosage"

That not what I said. I said some of those things are more toxic than arsenic. That's per dosage. Just like arsenic, they're a long term health risk at any dosage.
Which is why people get stomach protection meds prescribed with them, and organ failure after prolonged usage is considered a risk, but there's not been any long term studies done into that, because apprently if someone didn't die after 26 weeks, it's okay enough to put on the market.
I can give someone a certain dose of arsenic too for 26 weeks, and have them still pass as healthy, except maybe for some increased diabetes. Few years more of that dose though and they'd be dead and grey.

But apparently, for psychopharma meds, that is an acceptable risk.

There are some pretty key differences between arsenic poisoning and what you'd typically see in an overdose on a prescription drug. Arsenic accumulates in the body very readily, as a lot of it just sort of collects in tissues that don't have a way to get rid of it. That's why you can be gradually poisoned by it; it just builds up in your body until it becomes a problem, even if each individual dose wasn't enough to trigger immediate symptoms.

If you look at the type of take-one-by-mouth-daily prescription medication that's most commonly used for psychiatric disorders, they tend to have a biological half-life on the order of a couple of hours to a few days. They're either broken down or flushed out by the time you need your next dose, so you can't get the same kind of gradual build-up that you would see with lead, mercury, or arsenic, which have half-lives on the order of weeks or months.

Poor school performance is the most obvious symptom, but it wasn't the worst thing about my ADD.  The best way I can describe it is you can see clearly what you want to do and what you need to do but you can't do it.  Its like fighting your own brain and consistently losing.  Its a different feeling than depression, but its like depression in that it touches every aspect of your life.

I can't agree with this enough.

[Dunamisdeos]

The best way I can describe it is you can see clearly what you want to do and what you need to do but you can't do it.  Its like fighting your own brain and consistently losing.  Its a different feeling than depression, but its like depression in that it touches every aspect of your life.

This is a wholly accurate description of what I feel like with ADHD. I describe ADHD to others as if a computer processor needed to be used at 100% capacity at all times in order to process anything, and therefore has no choice but to process everything it can at all times whether there was something worthwhile to process or not. It's extremely difficult for me to focus on one simple task or one person speaking, but a very complex task or multiple small tasks make everything click. I used to read books while my teacher lectured to help me absorb and recall what she was saying. It's almost painful to sit and do nothing unless it's time to sleep.

Based on my own experience I would urge the avoidance of ADD/ADHD medication when possible, but in the end you and I are the only ones who can make that decision for ourselves. If you find that medication is the best option for managing the condition, go for it. More power to you for finding the right tool and using it.

My father has ADD, and he hates paper planners but found that a PDA and later a Cell Phone was somehow completely usable for him. He relies heavily on that to work around the organizational aspects of his ADD, and to great effect.

[smjjames]

I had the same issues where it'd be difficult to concentrate or focus on something and impulsiveness issues.

Anyhoo, I suppose we can get back to politics?

[hector13]

Roy Moore challenges the Alabama election result, claiming fraud.

[Frumple]

It'll be hilarious if that gets investigated, and it ends up finding it was moore/the GOP that committed it.

[smjjames]

Not surprising that he'd be stubborn as all heck. Also, one complaint given as an example of election fraud is a nonexistent town, making up false claims about election fraud isn't a crime (though it should be? isn't it?), but it shows how desperate Moore is if he has to make up nonexistent towns.

[Frumple]

I'unno, it might actually trip over libel or slander laws. There is stuff on the books involving public claims of criminal conduct and whatnot, particularly if it's intended to, well, spread slanderous accusations. They tend to be hella' loose, but they're sorta' out there. Probably depends on how it's being framed and specifically who, if anyone specific, is being accused.

[smjjames]

Ambassador Nikki Haley got pranked by two Russian comedians (who have pranked other officials before) into talking about a fictional island. lol....

You'd think she would know each country or at least take a glance at the UN membership because all but two have a membership or representative in the UN. Those two are the Holy See (because neutral, though they do have observer status) and Palestine.

[EnigmaticHat]

This is me being a pedant, but Kosovo isn't in the UN either.

I'unno, it might actually trip over libel or slander laws. There is stuff on the books involving public claims of criminal conduct and whatnot, particularly if it's intended to, well, spread slanderous accusations. They tend to be hella' loose, but they're sorta' out there. Probably depends on how it's being framed and specifically who, if anyone specific, is being accused.

I doubt anything would happen.  Libel and slander are almost always used in lawsuits, I don't think the government even can bring legal charges for slander.

Anyway, looks like Roy Moore's suit was rejected and Doug Jones declared the winner (again?).  So McConnell probs can't drag out his confirmation long enough to get anything more done.

[smjjames]

I thought Kosovo had some sort of representation? Still, it's a pretty embarrassing moment for Nikki Haley.

This is me being a pedant, but Kosovo isn't in the UN either.

I'unno, it might actually trip over libel or slander laws. There is stuff on the books involving public claims of criminal conduct and whatnot, particularly if it's intended to, well, spread slanderous accusations. They tend to be hella' loose, but they're sorta' out there. Probably depends on how it's being framed and specifically who, if anyone specific, is being accused.

I doubt anything would happen.  Libel and slander are almost always used in lawsuits, I don't think the government even can bring legal charges for slander.

Anyway, looks like Roy Moore's suit was rejected and Doug Jones declared the winner (again?).  So McConnell probs can't drag out his confirmation long enough to get anything more done.

Well, it's just the official certification from the state secretary, and McConnell just wants it over with and done. As much as Liberals and Democrats would enjoy the schadenfreude of having Moore in there, McConnell wants absolutely nothing to do with Moore, he'd rather lose the seat temporarily and have another go at it in 2020.

[Frumple]

I doubt anything would happen.  Libel and slander are almost always used in lawsuits, I don't think the government even can bring legal charges for slander.

Not entirely sure about that, but pretty entirely sure the DNC or whatever individual(s) that'd be implicated by the claims would have the at-least-conceptual grounds to file. Fraud claims about a nebulous "someone" innit exactly amazing at passing legal muster, so an actual attempt at 'em would presumably have, y'know, actual targets. Specific voting precincts and whatnot.

Fairly sure that's what happens when the GOP tries to shit on voter suffrage for the Nth time and gets caught at it, again, so I'd assume fraud charges would have to be similarly directed. If moore and co. aren't just blowing hot air out the ass they're trying to pass off as a mouth, anyway.

Half want to say individual departments of the gov't might have the grounds, too... assuming there was actually something to hit with our ten penny whore's orifice level loose libel or slander laws, heh. Any case, whatever legal grounds might exist, near as I've noticed it's just arse gas flowing out their craw again so we probably won't even have the small chance of finding out.

[Max™]

Super off topic but fuck it...

(or dangerous to discontinue, like Abilify, where discontinuation appears to even be able to cause schizophrenia in people who did not have schizophrenia before)

Yo anyone here ever had someone they care about go through this? We couldn't afford this shit at one point so I gotta deal with the woman I love starting to hear voices telling her shit like to not be a goat to the point she was in a panic over wanting to be a sheep, when I got her calmed down from that (still had a few days until the medicine arrived) I realized she was getting intense stim urges and had her chew on a rolled up belt and roll her wrists/ankles until it went down.

If it ever happens that there ends up being a way to get people off of that shit without that happening again, she's going off for sure, as she literally takes it to avoid the side effects at this point.