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[EnigmaticHat]

I don't know either, but the truth of the matter is that STEM fields can't and won't employ the entire population.  Or half the population.  Or a quarter.  If we want most people to be happy we have to build a society where people can be happy cleaning toilets or filing paper into cabinets for the government.  Cause most people are going to end up doing something unglamorous like that.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Frankly, even STEM fields aren't that great. They've got the chronic issue of seeking an unemployed ten year professional for an entry level position and entry level pay while automating and distancing the hiring process as much as possible.

[Paxiecrunchle]

So TLDR: the country might be fucked for the next thirty years if policies and ecconomics keep following their current trends?

Or am I misunderstanding you guys?

[wierd]

I would say it could co sour in less than 10, personally.  We are literally one more big financial crisis away from serious fuckery, and with the new tax system in effect with all its (suspected outcomes and) purposeful features enabling more bullshit, we can probably expect it to come home to roost VERY soon.

[Frumple]

Also do remember, we're slightly overdue/right on time for that big financial crisis. At minimum recession is coming pretty soon, and, so far as fiscal policy goes, of course the GOP is doing about everything they can manage to pave the way for it to be worse than it could have been for more or less the most people they can fuck over.

Effectively the hammer is set to drop on that front in less than four or five years or thereabouts, never mind ten or thirty. Shit's near certain to sour in under a decade, the only question is how bitter it gets.

[smjjames]

Yeah, the stock market keeps going up and it just has a feeling of 'the higher/bigger they are, the harder they fall'. I'm not saying it absolutely will crash, but the upwards motion can't be sustainable.

[Frumple]

Hell, to an extent the stock market means jack all. Folks have started noticing that the extent that slate of market fluctuations reflects the situation on the ground is growing increasingly smaller. It going down pretty certainly won't help, but it staying fairly high might not help much, either.

It'd be a certain sort of interesting if we had recession or depression conditions for most of the population but kept a steady stock market growth, heh. We've seen fairly explicit statements recently-ish by industry leaders that they have zero intent of passing any gains they make onto anyone except their stockholders, iirc, who aren't exactly known for infusing their own gains back into any part of the economy most of the population gives a shit about.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Yes, the stock market economy has become increasingly detached from any physical representation, and it's accelerating at least steadily if not exponentially. I dread to think of what the economy as a whole looks like when the lion's share is caught up in this ethereal numbers game.

[McTraveller]

Yeah, it's a shame that there is not better correlation between the "physical" economy and the "financial" economy.  They are different things, and it seems that the physical economy, which should lead the financial one, is instead often led by the financial one.  It's very backwards.

My basic example is of our most recent recession - it was wholly a financial bookkeeping thing.  The day after the crisis, we still had the same population, physical infrastructure, same education level, same number of people providing services, etc.  There was no "physical" reason why the downturn occurred - it was only a financial artifact that cascaded into real physical issues later.

I don't care if it was by happenstance or by design, the fact that essentially people just declared a disaster by changing some numbers in some databases is actually more disturbing to me than use of physical weapons.

[smjjames]

Yeah, it's a shame that there is not better correlation between the "physical" economy and the "financial" economy.  They are different things, and it seems that the physical economy, which should lead the financial one, is instead often led by the financial one.  It's very backwards.

My basic example is of our most recent recession - it was wholly a financial bookkeeping thing.  The day after the crisis, we still had the same population, physical infrastructure, same education level, same number of people providing services, etc.  There was no "physical" reason why the downturn occurred - it was only a financial artifact that cascaded into real physical issues later.

I don't care if it was by happenstance or by design, the fact that essentially people just declared a disaster by changing some numbers in some databases is actually more disturbing to me than use of physical weapons.

You could make the same argument for the Great Depression.

[scriver]

BURN MATCHES BURN

[SalmonGod]

Yeah, it's a shame that there is not better correlation between the "physical" economy and the "financial" economy.  They are different things, and it seems that the physical economy, which should lead the financial one, is instead often led by the financial one.  It's very backwards.

My basic example is of our most recent recession - it was wholly a financial bookkeeping thing.  The day after the crisis, we still had the same population, physical infrastructure, same education level, same number of people providing services, etc.  There was no "physical" reason why the downturn occurred - it was only a financial artifact that cascaded into real physical issues later.

I don't care if it was by happenstance or by design, the fact that essentially people just declared a disaster by changing some numbers in some databases is actually more disturbing to me than use of physical weapons.

This was my perspective on it, too.  Millions of people kicked out of their homes.  There weren't suddenly less homes or that many more people.  The financial priests just declared that to appease some evil omen, people needed to lose their homes.  And so it was done.  The entire modern world is propped up on a mountain of bullshit, as far as I'm concerned.  This was where I started forming the argument that capitalism doesn't just suck.  It's obsolete.  It is not capable of distributing abundant resources efficiently.  It was designed to manage scarcity.  When scarcity is no longer a thing, it can only adjust by wrecking everyone's shit to create scarcity.  This was ok 100+ years ago.  It still sucked, but at least the function it was conceived for matched real circumstances.  Not true anymore.

[Ricky]

Yeah, it's a shame that there is not better correlation between the "physical" economy and the "financial" economy.  They are different things, and it seems that the physical economy, which should lead the financial one, is instead often led by the financial one.  It's very backwards.

My basic example is of our most recent recession - it was wholly a financial bookkeeping thing.  The day after the crisis, we still had the same population, physical infrastructure, same education level, same number of people providing services, etc.  There was no "physical" reason why the downturn occurred - it was only a financial artifact that cascaded into real physical issues later.

I don't care if it was by happenstance or by design, the fact that essentially people just declared a disaster by changing some numbers in some databases is actually more disturbing to me than use of physical weapons.

Rick and Morty - changing 1 to 0
semi relevant

[misko27]

This was my perspective on it, too.  Millions of people kicked out of their homes.  There weren't suddenly less homes or that many more people.  The financial priests just declared that to appease some evil omen, people needed to lose their homes.  And so it was done.  The entire modern world is propped up on a mountain of bullshit, as far as I'm concerned. 

That's a two-way street, though. The modern world is built on bullshit, but bullshit makes the world go round, now. Hell the biggest single risk of the 2008 crisis was that banks and businesses stopped believing in the system: businesses couldn't take loans to cover day-to-day expenses, and that could have, by itself, sunk us into a Great Depression. People stopped believing in it, and so the world almost stopped too. Had they not finally intervened to prop the whole thing up, it might well have happened. And then where would we be? Wishing for better bullshit, maybe.

But damn, it's really the fire-and-brimstone crowd here today. If it gets any more apocalyptic in here the doomsday preppers will start talking shop. Granted, I'd feel much better about the economy if its stewards weren't partisan hacks at best(?), and wildly incompetent narcissists at worst. But the economy seems fine for now, and one of the advantages of the stock market being disconnected is it doesn't hurt us so much (And I mean that, incidentally; it wasn't the stock market crashing that caused people to lose their homes or businesses to sink, it's lending. The stock market made things worse, but it just followed the other problems, not caused them. The economy has gotten a lot more complex since the Great Depression, and stock markets alone do not a Depression make, at least anymore).

On a less Ron-Paul-lite note, I've a thought I heard about a month ago which, with the signing of Trump's only achievement, is now coming into its relevance: what's next? All I heard about Republican plans were "Repeal Obamacare, reform taxes", and having failed outright at one and barely passed (1 vote!) a watered-down version for the other, what happens next? They don't seem to have any plans for Year 2. I'm hearing some weird "Next year will be bipartisan" nonsense from McConnell and Trump, and there are the vague "Bipartisan Infrastructure Bill" pronouncements, but those are as undefined as they are DOA. But what is their thing? Are they gonna try "be bipartisan or it'll make you look bad" on Democrats, maybe?

[Frumple]

Presume they're going to continue trying to fuck the population to enrich their donors and you're probably in good shape. Maybe they'll get around to screwing the national parks so that protected lands can be torn to hell in search of profit? Iirc the GOP was starting work on something along those lines earlier this year.

If you're looking for chucklefuck territory, apparently some GOP critters are on record saying they expect to fix their tax scam next year, so maybe we get to see that particular clown show kick off/continue. And there's always continuing to dismantle our diplomatic capabilities, welfare, infrastructure, etc. They've gotta' start trying to actually build that wall sooner or later, too. Plenty of ways to cultivate the enmity of the majority of the american population and supermajority of the rest of the world left to take a swing at.