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[Telgin]

To add an anecdote to that, I've heard people around here say, unironically, that it's impossible to be a Christian and a Democrat.  Complete with rousing following of "Amen!" around the room.

[scriver]

Handy reference to the 27 amendments for our international friends.

Thanks! That's exactly what I was wondering but probably wouldn't have looked up without you linking it.

[smjjames]

Handy reference to the 27 amendments for our international friends.

Thanks! That's exactly what I was wondering but probably wouldn't have looked up without you linking it.

Not sure if being sarcastic or actually thankful. Was just trying to be courteous there.

In other news, there was an attempted terror attack this morning, but the guy was so dang incompetent that he only injured himself and a few others, non-lifethreatening injuries, and created a hell of a lot of smoke.

Mayor De Blasio forgot to say "Thank God that the guy was so incompetent.", though he kind of said it with other words.

[Sheb]

I think we all need to thanks the murderous terrorists of ISIS for their help in taking out the murderous terrorists of ISIS.

[Egan_BW]

Well, guess the secret government incompetence ray works.
/tinfoilhat

[Dunamisdeos]

Heya folks! That's a helluva conversation you have going there.

As I believe I am the resident Christian hereabouts, I'd like to weigh in and say that Christianity is super not unified. The only other major denomination outside of Catholicism that has a real, meaningful oversight is the Baptists. They have the ability to remove leadership, because they directly provide the majority of funding for their official churches. Other denominations are either too small or have no oversight whatsoever. I'd also estimate that fully 80% of my family, which the vast majority of identifies as Christian, are not conservative. Over half are card-carrying Democrats.

If they were going to not compromise their values, and stick to them, that'd be "the correct" thing IMO. Don't compromise on rights for homosexuals, fine. But also don't compromise on standing for people who are demonstrably dishonest, and sometimes criminal. If they've done wrong things there are consequences for those things under your own moral code. But instead there's indifference because "well our side needs to win." It's called integrity, or rather the lack of it.

I'm 100% for stringing up any Democrat who has acted inappropriately, now or in the past. The Clintons, Frankin, whatever. (Notice he did the right thing and stepped down voluntarily? That's how you take responsibility for your behavior.) But the same goes for Republicans. There need to be consequences for any moral system to have meaning, and frankly the group in this country that talks the most about morality the loudest seems to shrug off the consequences any time they don't live up to the standards they say they hold, because their own base won't hold them accountable. Frankin quit because his colleagues wanted him gone over it and his base would hold him accountable and not re-elect him anyways. He fucked up, he got caught, he ate shit. That's how the system is supposed to work.

And yet the Right invents all sorts of reasons why this doesn't apply to their people, or shouldn't, from divine grace to forgiveness to some apocalyptic struggle for control of values in this country that they will "forgive" a whole hell of a lot to win. People talk about respecting the other side but damn, it's times like this that make it really hard to do so, when we can't even agree on an equal metric of justice because people think the culture war is so much more important. I've always advocated for holding our politicians to the highest possible standard of behavior, and it drives me insane when people treat them as if they operate on some different realm of existence where the basic rules of honesty and integrity can't or shouldn't apply to them. Allegations of preying on teenagers or groping people can and do ruin "normal" people's lives.

As a Christian I fully agree with all of this. I don't think it's a "Christian" problem exclusively (And I don't think that's what you're saying, mind you), but more of a problem with humanity in general. The first round of responses I saw over Al Franken were exactly that: we want to win, so let's stop talking about it, because then the GOP wins. I've witnessed this problem in Christianity multiple times, where people use it as a vehicle to raise themselves up over the people they hate, and therefore have no problem compromising their "Christian values" as soon as it becomes practical for them to do so. I attended one church for years right up until I found out there was a moratorium against helping black people. They didn't even try to justify it biblically.

There's very little way to actually rein in folks who divert from "Peace and Love" to "Kill the gays". It frustrates me immensely when I see this and I speak up every time I see one of my fellow religionites do something like this. When you belong to any group whose supposed entire purpose is adherence to a moral code of any kind, it's much worse when you deviate from it in this manner.

[nenjin]

I attended one church for years right up until I found out there was a moratorium against helping black people. They didn't even try to justify it biblically.

*sigh* I hate to be a broken record, but, examples like this outshine even the most welcoming and progressive Christian attitudes out there in the minds of non-religious people. Most people aren't going to make the distinction between Methodists, Baptists, Catholics, Free Angelican (how I was raised.) They're not going to make the distinction between that asshole church down the street and the "good church" up the block. They're just going to see one denomination being shitty and look around and not see another denomination lined up against them, and assume that if it's not all Christians, at least it's not bothering them enough to protest people in the same overarching religion.

And I get it. No Christian really wants to call out another Christian. But tbh Christians are the only one with a prayer (waggles eyebrows) of being listened to. Your garden variety CR Christian doesn't respect the opinions of agnostics or atheists. We're "not on their level." We can criticize all day and call out their blatant theological or ethical inconsistencies, but at the end of the day I feel like we will be ignored because we aren't saved. And therefore our opinion in their eyes are worth much, much less. The simple fact they can fall back on "faith" as a reason why what they do and say is right pretty much destroys any chance for debate, because how do you honestly argue with faith? "I don't know what's true but I know what I believe and that's as far as I need to go."

Maybe it'd be the same way when different denominations start arguing with each other too. I've seen the sects talk plenty of shit about each other over the years. But at least it'd be Christians calling out Christians and the optics of that would at least be different than the current optics of, say, a 22 year old liberal democrat atheist with piercings and dyed hair chewing out a 65 year old Conservative Republican Christian grandmother.

I guess the reality is though, you can argue with people all day and point out where what they say and do doesn't match what they preach, but if they're simply going to ignore you and their own lack of cognitive dissonance there's really nothing you can do.

[Urist McScoopbeard]

Yep. As long as religion exists there is basically nothing rational people can do without comprising their own beliefs to stop people from using said religion as an excuse to legitimize their shittiness.

[Dunamisdeos]

Religion, or nationalism, or political affiliation, or scientific progress, or any of the other myriad things people "rational" folks like to subvert as an excuse for their own goals. Humanity is a crappy bunch.

The common factor in all of humanities countless atrocities is, in fact, humanity.

[Urist McScoopbeard]

You're not wrong, but religion is particularly easy to subvert.

[Dunamisdeos]

You're not wrong, but religion is particularly easy to subvert.

You're not wrong either

[Helgoland]

No Christian really wants to call out another Christian.

As the resident Catholic I'd like to chime in here and say that Luther was an antisemitic, bigoted, kill-the-poor thunderstorm-fearing yellowbelly, while Henry VIII. was a horny bastard who should've been given the Louis XVI. treatment. And don't even get me started on Mormons.

[smjjames]

Really should shift that tangent to the religion thread guys....

So, for those of you still looking towards Alabama, here's a good exploration into why all the polls are so crazy.

Yeah, the polls have been all over the place, this morning there was a Fox poll saying that Jones is 10 points ahead of Moore at 50 to 40, with a margin of error of 3. We'll have to see how much of an effect write in and alternate candidates have.

[nenjin]

Sorry, I'm done on the religious bit. I was just super triggered by that HBO show.

[wierd]

No Christian really wants to call out another Christian.

As the resident Catholic I'd like to chime in here and say that Luther was an antisemitic, bigoted, kill-the-poor thunderstorm-fearing yellowbelly, while Henry VIII. was a horny bastard who should've been given the Louis XVI. treatment. And don't even get me started on Mormons.

But Mormons have magic underwear! No other sect has magic underwear!