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[smjjames]

I would be surprised if the impeachment wasn't a package deal, considering the blood in the streets if Pence pardoned Trump ala Ford. There's also the convenient usage of the campaign as the leading excuse, which could easily be used to lump Pence in.

In the case of a Democratic house, the only reason I can think of not to simultaneously remove Pence would be the massive and lasting backlash that could be expected if one party impeached both the president and vice president of the other party, and then replaced them with a congressperson of their choice and party (unless the Dems made a Republican the speaker, but that would obviously be even weirder). Something as extreme as the double impeachment sounds like "road to civil war" territory (not that I'd be against impeaching both).

Trying to circumvent the line of succession like that would generate cries of 'COOOOUUUUUPPPP!!' for sure.

They'd have to find Pence guilty of something, but he has been suspiciously free of the taint from the scandal, either through sheer dumb luck or a concerted effort to protect him from the effects. Theres just too much going on, especially during the transition, that he'd be out of the loop, especially given that he was heading the transition.

I would be surprised if the impeachment wasn't a package deal, considering the blood in the streets if Pence pardoned Trump ala Ford. There's also the convenient usage of the campaign as the leading excuse, which could easily be used to lump Pence in.

There's also the likelihood of Pence being, at the very least, complicit to a criminal degree. Depending on what Mueller finds, it could be very difficult to either party to justify removing the one but not the other.

There's also that a President Pence would inherit a country wildly beyond his ability to govern, at least not without his human mask slipping a bit from stress and revealing the roiling vortex of madness and hatred beneath. Republicans could well want him out of the way before he, like Moore, becomes emblematic of "family values" as a whole; they got into this for the bribes, not to make a theocracy.

As I said, he seems suspiciously free of the scandal so far, which can only be explained by either sheer dumb luck or an actual effort to protect him from it. Which would imply that the team and Trump knew they were doing something that could get them into trouble.

Also, didn't Bill Clinton go straight from Arkansas Governor to President? editwhiletyping: Checked wiki and yes he did. He did pretty damn well for just being a Governor, so, I wouldn't say wildly beyond his ability to govern.

edit2: Ronald Regan did the same too, though there was a several year gap for him.

[Bumber]

If you'll remember he was promising everything to everyone. He was even courting the LGBT community as well as suggesting he'd improve healthcare somehow, was reaching out to other races (other than Mexicans, of course, his only real consistent "enemy" other than the democrats) ...

https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/728297587418247168

[Trekkin]

Also, didn't Bill Clinton go straight from Nebraska Governor to President? editwhiletyping: Checked wiki and yes he did. He did pretty damn well for just being a Governor, so, I wouldn't say wildly beyond his ability to govern.

edit2: Ronald Regan did the same too, though there was a several year gap for him.

I'm not saying that being President in general is beyond is abilities, but the country in the wake of Trump's impeachment will be exceptionally difficult to govern -- and Pence's dismal 0-for-90 record as a Congressperson suggests that he does not have the admittedly extraordinary skillset to smoothly reconcile livid Trump voters and triumphant-but-still-unhappy liberals who will regard his Presidency as a product of the same collusion they just impeached Trump for.

In other words, he could probably be a capable President if elected normally, but not just after Trump -- at least not without making things much worse, because he's kind of a crazy extremist.

[smjjames]

0 for 90 record as a congressperson, what do you mean by that? 0 for 90 of what?

I agree that he isn't likely to be able to reconcile between the two parties because he's already so far right and is still tainted because of the election.

Also, the thing mentioned earlier about Ford pardoning Nixon, he was trying to heal the country. Whether things would have been better off with Nixon not getting pardoned is one for historians to debate. However, given that Pence is directly connected to Trump (unlike Ford) and the crime is much more egregious, it would lead to an outcry and possibly the impeachment of Pence. That however, would REALLY plunge the US into a time of crisis.

[Trekkin]

0 for 90 record as a congressperson, what do you mean by that? 0 for 90 of what?

He proposed 90 bills. 0 became law. For the record, the average bills proposed per representative for those Congresses was 13.6, of which roughly one in 7.38 passed.

[bloop_bleep]

Also, the thing mentioned earlier about Ford pardoning Nixon, he was trying to heal the country.

Heal the country how? By giving a proven crook who repeatedly planned major acts of sabotage against his political opponents, including several Presidents, a get-out-of-jail-free card? Don't try to defend him, the pardon was just another political maneuver on Nixon's part.

[nenjin]

Also, didn't Bill Clinton go straight from Nebraska Governor to President? editwhiletyping: Checked wiki and yes he did. He did pretty damn well for just being a Governor, so, I wouldn't say wildly beyond his ability to govern.

Arkansas. Not Nebraska. We generally don't produce people with Southern accents.

[smjjames]

Also, the thing mentioned earlier about Ford pardoning Nixon, he was trying to heal the country.

Heal the country how? By giving a proven crook who repeatedly planned major acts of sabotage against his political opponents, including several Presidents, a get-out-of-jail-free card? Don't try to defend him, the pardon was just another political maneuver on Nixon's part.

You'd have to ask Ford (who died 11 years ago), I'm just saying that was his reasoning.

Also, didn't Bill Clinton go straight from Nebraska Governor to President? editwhiletyping: Checked wiki and yes he did. He did pretty damn well for just being a Governor, so, I wouldn't say wildly beyond his ability to govern.

Arkansas. Not Nebraska. We generally don't produce people with Southern accents.

Whoop, I'll fix.

[Folly]

Well, Franken just caved to peer pressure and bailed on the senate.

Am I the only one bothered by the fact that every significant recent accusation of harassment and molestation was against prominent men? Where are all the horny women with no self control and positions of power?

[Lord Shonus]

There's two factors there.

First, women politicians have historically been much more vulnerable to virtue-based smear campaigns than male ones, so most current long-term women politicians have needed a far greater degree of self-restraint than their male counterparts in all areas, including this one.

Second, the only form of sexual harassment that routinely gets taken seriously in current society is Male on Female. The victims of Male on Male, Female on Male, and Female on Female forms of sexual harassment are routinely ignored or ridiculed in society generally. This is because of the power dynamics between men and women in the workplaces of thirty years ago, when people first started seeing sexual harassment as a Big Problem.

[Trekkin]

There's two factors there.

First, women politicians have historically been much more vulnerable to virtue-based smear campaigns than male ones, so most current long-term women politicians have needed a far greater degree of self-restraint than their male counterparts in all areas, including this one.

Second, the only form of sexual harassment that routinely gets taken seriously in current society is Male on Female. The victims of Male on Male, Female on Male, and Female on Female forms of sexual harassment are routinely ignored or ridiculed in society generally. This is because of the power dynamics between men and women in the workplaces of thirty years ago, when people first started seeing sexual harassment as a Big Problem.

There's also simple statistics. Men outnumber women in the 115th Congress four to one. Assuming that sexual misconduct is perpetrated and reported at the same rate across genders (which is an entirely different can of worms), you'd expect the odds that five of five Congresspeople accused of sexual misconduct would be male to be about one in three. That's unlikely, but not terrifically so.

[smjjames]

There's two factors there.

First, women politicians have historically been much more vulnerable to virtue-based smear campaigns than male ones, so most current long-term women politicians have needed a far greater degree of self-restraint than their male counterparts in all areas, including this one.

Second, the only form of sexual harassment that routinely gets taken seriously in current society is Male on Female. The victims of Male on Male, Female on Male, and Female on Female forms of sexual harassment are routinely ignored or ridiculed in society generally. This is because of the power dynamics between men and women in the workplaces of thirty years ago, when people first started seeing sexual harassment as a Big Problem.

There's also simple statistics. Men outnumber women in the 115th Congress four to one. Assuming that sexual misconduct is perpetrated and reported at the same rate across genders (which is an entirely different can of worms), you'd expect the odds that five of five Congresspeople accused of sexual misconduct would be male to be about one in three. That's unlikely, but not terrifically so.

Not sure if you're counting Roy Moore there in the five because theres only four that were already in office, two of which have resigned. One earlier case turned out to be revenge porn.

[EnigmaticHat]

I'd also point out that neither the status quo nor the current wave of sexual assault allegations directly assist male victims of sexual assault.  So if we want to talk about female on male sexual assault in terms of how we're going to help the victims, great.  But using male victims to discuss the current wave of allegations is getting into whataboutism.

[Reelya]

Well, Franken just caved to peer pressure and bailed on the senate.

Am I the only one bothered by the fact that every significant recent accusation of harassment and molestation was against prominent men? Where are all the horny women with no self control and positions of power?

Notably, there was a female singer accused of molestation by another female singer, she only came forward because of the #metoo stuff, saying that prior to that, she didn't think people would believe her because it wasn't a male abuser. It's not getting as much coverage as the male abuse accusations.

However, there's good evidence that the overall dynamic is power and that gender plays second fiddle. e.g. in prisons ... 89% of juveniles assaulted by staff is boys assaulted by adult females (and this is legally assault even if the boys go along with it). And this is despite the female guards being ~ 25% of all guards. e.g. in a situation where women have power over boys, the "expected" dynamic is turned on its head, and they are basically given unsupervised access, because of the old fashioned belief system that women are always nurturing and it's only the men you have to monitor. This shows how having an incorrect worldview can let real abuse slip through the cracks.

A related statistic is that the victimization rate by fellow inmates in male prisons is about 4%, while it's 14% in female prisons (e.g. incarcerated women rape other women with far higher prevalence than in male prisons).

[nenjin]

Well, Franken just caved to peer pressure and bailed on the senate.

Am I the only one bothered by the fact that every significant recent accusation of harassment and molestation was against prominent men? Where are all the horny women with no self control and positions of power?

Notably, there was a female singer accused of molestation by another female singer, she only came forward because of the #metoo stuff, saying that prior to that, she didn't think people would believe her because it wasn't a male abuser. It's not getting as much coverage as the male abuse accusations.

However, there's good evidence that the overall dynamic is power and that gender plays second fiddle. e.g. in prisons ... 89% of juveniles assaulted by staff is boys assaulted by adult females (and this is legally assault even if the boys go along with it). And this is despite the female guards being ~ 25% of all guards. e.g. in a situation where women have power over boys, the "expected" dynamic is turned on its head, and they are basically given unsupervised access, because of the old fashioned belief system that women are always nurturing and it's only the men you have to monitor. This shows how having an incorrect worldview can let real abuse slip through the cracks.

Although this could have more to do with prison culture than some overarching theory about power relations between the sexes. Prisons are weird places that do weird shit to people's worldviews, regardless of which side of the bars they stand on.