Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[RedKing]

Democrats may be starting to feel the 'fuck you, got mine' aspect to policymaking now that they're getting tugged to the left, plus this whole political atmosphere.

Nah. Can't properly have that attitude unless you're in a position of strength. If they retake Congress in 2018, and spend the next two years throwing legislative roadblocks in Trumps path, holding impeachment hearings, and steadily marginalizing Republicans out of the political process altogether....thats a start.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

I've seen this most clearly regarding abortion rights. I've seen numberless Christians say shit like "Oh, well I agree with the Democrats on healthcare and civil rights and foreign policy and economics and gun control and national security and the Constitution but I always vote Republican because abortion is murder and I wish the Democrats would just stop supporting abortion already", and it's like, they see themselves as having the entitled default.

Because being pro-choice isn't a real position, it's just a problem that the Democrats have because they aren't thinking about their policies. They could get so many voters if they'd just abandon such silliness. Pro-choice voters don't have any real convictions, unlike these poor faithful pro-lifers.

From that point you go into increasing levels of crazy until you get to "if someone bombs an abortion doctor's house they're a hero just like a German resistance fighter".

[Dunamisdeos]

If it helps, Metal, myself and other Christians I know hold the position that access to safe abortion should always be available. The idea that it should be cut off completely as an option seems (in my experience) to be held by people who have never had to or known anyone who has had to consider it as an option.

We are not the majority in that regard, but there are more of us than there were last year, or the year before that.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

I'm more talking about the greater relationship between the right and left, where the right takes itself as entitled to being "genuine" convictions while the left is just like, a disease or something. Abortion and the religious right just happen to be the place where I've seen myopia most often.

[Dunamisdeos]

I see a truly frustrating amount of people who join on up to Christianity because it fits some belief they have or because their family or friends join without actually believing anything about it. They use it as an excuse to polarize and go after the folks they disapprove of.

Those people upset me immensely. I do see people with that attitude about me and mine, but I can confirm that it is a big problem for us here.

But I suppose that's what's behind most of these kinds of disputes, now and throughout history. Humans simply can't see their opposition as people with thoughts and reasons and beliefs, they just see an enemy, or a difference making them worthy of death. If you let that idea take root and grow you end with bombing mosques, shootings at churches, blowing up abortion clinics, running through crowds of protestors, all of that.

EDIT: Ninja'd, but I agree with the below post. The alt-right leadership has been entrenched in total war mode since CLINTON (Bill). They are a perfect example of who the left will turn into in 10 years if we keep this up.

[nenjin]

I'm more talking about the greater relationship between the right and left, where the right takes itself as entitled to being "genuine" convictions while the left is just like, a disease or something. Abortion and the religious right just happen to be the place where I've seen myopia most often.

Not that I disagree with you, but, Conservatives see the same behavior on the Liberal side. Liberals are very self-assured of their "right way of thinking" on issues like gender equality, gender identity, the environment, race, tax rates, public vs. private education, so on and so forth. I listened to one conservative commentator not too long ago basically level your quote at liberal democrats verbatim.

To Conservative Republicans, Liberal Democrats are smug know it alls who are arrogantly assured that they're on the correct side of a belief or value. Clinton just further reinforced this perception with the deplorables thing. A lot of Conservative Republicans I work with or around took that very personally, it's exactly the kind of thing they've always believed LDs felt and Clinton simply validated their world view that half of America thinks they're cretins, so, fuck half of America. And even after they've retreated from supporting Trump somewhat, that shit still lingers in their minds.

But the TLDR is, every side has its convictions. Both the Left and the Right's stem from a general belief they know right from wrong. The Left may source their beliefs from rationality or equality, and the right may source it from tradition and religion, but to me it boils down to the same thing at the end of the day: both sides are intractable because compromise of any kind feels like a violation of their beliefs. And in many cases, it is! You can't convince a LD to vote for a Trump policy they hate simply in the name of getting along. And CR demonstrated with Obama the same thing is true.

I'd say we need a centrist to mediate between the parties but all that would happen is they would fail one or another purity test either party holds, get cooperation out of no one, and have their nuts or ovaries neatly divided between the parties. Although, and this is my bias showing, CRs are way less willing to compromise than LDs IMO. They've been in all or nothing mode since Obama's 1st term. If you can't get exactly what you want, just start saying X politician is destroying America loudly and long enough until people start believing you. It's a win-win as long as you don't have any self-respect.

[redwallzyl]

I'm more talking about the greater relationship between the right and left, where the right takes itself as entitled to being "genuine" convictions while the left is just like, a disease or something. Abortion and the religious right just happen to be the place where I've seen myopia most often.

Not that I disagree with you, but, Conservatives see the same behavior on the Liberal side. Liberals are very self-assured of their "right way of thinking" on issues like gender equality, gender identity, the environment, race, tax rates, public vs. private education, so on and so forth. I listened to one conservative commentator not too long ago basically level your quote at liberal democrats verbatim.

To Conservative Republicans, Liberal Democrats are smug know it alls who are arrogantly assured that they're on the correct side of a belief or value. Clinton just further reinforced this perception with the deplorables thing. A lot of Conservative Republicans I work with or around took that very personally, it's exactly the kind of thing they've always believed LDs felt and Clinton simply validated their world view that half of America thinks they're cretins, so, fuck half of America. And even after they've retreated from supporting Trump somewhat, that shit still lingers in their minds.

But the TLDR is, every side has its convictions. Both the Left and the Right's stem from a general belief they know right from wrong. The Left may source their beliefs from rationality or equality, and the right may source it from tradition and religion, but to me it boils down to the same thing at the end of the day: both sides are intractable because compromise of any kind feels like a violation of their beliefs. And in many cases, it is! You can't convince a LD to vote for a Trump policy they hate simply in the name of getting along. And CR demonstrated with Obama the same thing is true.

I'd say we need a centrist to mediate between the parties but all that would happen is they would fail one or another purity test either party holds, get cooperation out of no one, and have their nuts or ovaries neatly divided between the parties. Although, and this is my bias showing, CRs are way less willing to compromise than LDs IMO. They've been in all or nothing mode since Obama's 1st term. If you can't get exactly what you want, just start saying X politician is destroying America loudly and long enough until people start believing you. It's a win-win as long as you don't have any self-respect.

Part of the problem it a centrist is its just often going to create a frankenstein false compromise that wont work and will make everyone pissed off. Also no matter how much you shine some turds they are still turds. a lot of the shit the republicans shill about the economy is pure bullshit that has been proven to not work but they have said it so much they convinced a bunch of people they are right. you literally cant make people both happy and have a economy not run by and for corporate and elite interests.

[smjjames]

Only problem is, where are the centrists? If you look at that graph of polictical polarization, there is a deep V shaped valley. They exist for sure, but they're finding it harder to have a home in either party.

This is about the point where a third party would spring up to fill the vacuum, but while there are attempts to find a middle ground or establish one, there really isn't a truly centrist political party. Of the two big ones, the Greens and Libertarians, the Greens are obviously left wing, the Libertarians are, um... well, someone on another forum (who is a libertarian themselves) said that theyre kind of on a spectrum of their own.

I'm more talking about the greater relationship between the right and left, where the right takes itself as entitled to being "genuine" convictions while the left is just like, a disease or something. Abortion and the religious right just happen to be the place where I've seen myopia most often.

Not that I disagree with you, but, Conservatives see the same behavior on the Liberal side. Liberals are very self-assured of their "right way of thinking" on issues like gender equality, gender identity, the environment, race, tax rates, public vs. private education, so on and so forth. I listened to one conservative commentator not too long ago basically level your quote at liberal democrats verbatim.

To Conservative Republicans, Liberal Democrats are smug know it alls who are arrogantly assured that they're on the correct side of a belief or value. Clinton just further reinforced this perception with the deplorables thing. A lot of Conservative Republicans I work with or around took that very personally, it's exactly the kind of thing they've always believed LDs felt and Clinton simply validated their world view that half of America thinks they're cretins, so, fuck half of America. And even after they've retreated from supporting Trump somewhat, that shit still lingers in their minds.

But the TLDR is, every side has its convictions. Both the Left and the Right's stem from a general belief they know right from wrong. The Left may source their beliefs from rationality or equality, and the right may source it from tradition and religion, but to me it boils down to the same thing at the end of the day: both sides are intractable because compromise of any kind feels like a violation of their beliefs. And in many cases, it is! You can't convince a LD to vote for a Trump policy they hate simply in the name of getting along. And CR demonstrated with Obama the same thing is true.

I'd say we need a centrist to mediate between the parties but all that would happen is they would fail one or another purity test either party holds, get cooperation out of no one, and have their nuts or ovaries neatly divided between the parties. Although, and this is my bias showing, CRs are way less willing to compromise than LDs IMO. They've been in all or nothing mode since Obama's 1st term. If you can't get exactly what you want, just start saying X politician is destroying America loudly and long enough until people start believing you. It's a win-win as long as you don't have any self-respect.

Part of the problem it a centrist is its just often going to create a frankenstein false compromise that wont work and will make everyone pissed off. Also no matter how much you shine some turds they are still turds. a lot of the shit the republicans shill about the economy is pure bullshit that has been proven to not work but they have said it so much they convinced a bunch of people they are right. you literally cant make people both happy and have a economy not run by and for corporate and elite interests.

Maybe Centrist should be seen more as 'having some elements of both and generally moderate' than trying to be absolutely center, which is impossible because people are going to lean one way or another anyway.

[Paxiecrunchle]

Exactly, as someone who's gradually become more liberal after once seeing themselves as a libertarian even I think we really need a party for centrists and listen to them especially when they disagree with us so that we can all ponder where those disagreements stem from and weather or not we should shift our positions or not.

But maybe I am the crazy one for thinking that?

[redwallzyl]

Exactly, as someone who's gradually become more liberal after once seeing themselves as a libertarian even I think we really need a party for centrists and listen to them especially when they disagree with us so that we can all ponder where those disagreements stem from and weather or not we should shift our positions or not.

But maybe I am the crazy one for thinking that?

Well your first step to creating a viable third party is to rewrite the constitution to something that would allow one to exist without getting subsumed into the two larger ones. Good luck.

[Dunamisdeos]

Exactly, as someone who's gradually become more liberal after once seeing themselves as a libertarian even I think we really need a party for centrists and listen to them especially when they disagree with us so that we can all ponder where those disagreements stem from and weather or not we should shift our positions or not.

But maybe I am the crazy one for thinking that?

That in no way involves the total obliteration of the people who aren't like you. That's apathy.

[bloop_bleep]

I've never gotten the idea that RedKing embraced hatred, Dunamisdeos, he's just really pessimistic about it because hes experienced how shitty it gets on the Republican side. I don't think he's actually declared himself to be Republican, but that doesn't matter.

I'm pessimistic because I've seen the "why can't we all just get along" trope used my whole life, at times far less divisive than these, and the only effect I've observed is a steady lean to the Right in this country.

When the Left is in power, Republicans talk about the importance of bipartisanship and consensus, because they're on the outside looking in. Meanwhile their allies in the punditocracy screech hate and lies and pull the electorate to the Right.

As soon as they gain power, bipartisanship goes out the fucking window, because "elections have consequences". They do whatever the fuck they want, and if anybody tries to stop them, they get hanmered with rhetoric.

When Democrats get back into power, they generally lack that "fuck you, got mine" aspect to policymaking. Which means they don't counterbalance the Right. At best, they halt the bleeding.

So to my mind, arguing "we should try to understand each other and compromise" is just a tired old wolf-in-sheeps clothing argument to try and defuse the Left from actually doing unto others as has been done unto them.

Fuck that noise. The Republicans have been building this for 30-40 years, it's time to reap the whirlwind, bitches.

Just because we can't all get along doesn't mean we shouldn't work toward it. Dismissing everyone who disagrees with you as an evil scumbag is working against it. Using dirty tricks and enacting petty revenge (even when the other side did it to you before) is also working against it. By doing so, we're simply escalating a completely meaningless conflict which does nothing but alienate everyone and reinforce tribalism. Maybe we shouldn't compromise in everything we do, but we also shouldn't consider everyone who isn't on our side as inferior. We're all human beings; we all have more or less the same mental capacity and same moral sense. We're all capable of change. Look at any Republican, and realize that they are exactly the same as you.

Besides, Democrats aren't as holy as you think they are anyway, not by a long shot. They often do use the exact same tricks and tactics as the Republicans. They are just as corrupt as Republicans, and they abuse their power and authority just as often as the Republicans too. The whole Dems Can Do No Wrong trope could not be more wrong. Politicians in general are pretty bad.

EDIT:

If it helps, Metal, myself and other Christians I know hold the position that access to safe abortion should always be available. The idea that it should be cut off completely as an option seems (in my experience) to be held by people who have never had to or known anyone who has had to consider it as an option.

We are not the majority in that regard, but there are more of us than there were last year, or the year before that.

To be honest, abortion is pretty much the only topic which I'm not completely sure I'm leaning left on. I mean, I get that women should have control over their own reproductive system, but there's something about stopping someone who could have lived from living that nags at me. I'm pretty undecided on this issue at the moment.

This is not influenced by the fact that I grew up in a Christian household, to be clear. I'm not so much a Christian anymore as an agnostic.

[misko27]

Not at the mercy of the electorate? Then who the fuck paid to foist the Donald on us?

[smjjames]

If it helps, Metal, myself and other Christians I know hold the position that access to safe abortion should always be available. The idea that it should be cut off completely as an option seems (in my experience) to be held by people who have never had to or known anyone who has had to consider it as an option.

We are not the majority in that regard, but there are more of us than there were last year, or the year before that.

To be honest, abortion is pretty much the only topic which I'm not completely sure I'm leaning left on. I mean, I get that women should have control over their own reproductive system, but there's something about stopping someone who could have lived from living that nags at me. I'm pretty undecided on this issue at the moment.

This is not influenced by the fact that I grew up in a Christian household, to be clear. I'm not so much a Christian anymore as an agnostic.

That's pretty much the sole sticking point, some do agree that women should have control of their own reproductive systems, but others take the 'life must be preserved' bit to the point where the woman no longer has control.

Probably won't be solved until we invent fully functional external wombs (and no, those new things don't count), and even then, it'd probably shoot off in another direction.

[Strife26]

Woohoo, the Middle Eastern Clusterfuck relocation boogaloo is starting.