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[wierd]

The "runs like a business" nature of many prisons, is why there are so many problems in the US penal system. (Or at least, a VERY big contributor.)  Prisons like that monetize inmates, and the more they can ensure you never leave, the more they can monetize you. 

Frankly, it is simply disgusting.  Prisons should NEVER be run like that. EVER.

MaxSpin has it dead nuts.

[Trekkin]

The "runs like a business" nature of many prisons, is why there are so many problems in the US penal system. (Or at least, a VERY big contributor.)  Prisons like that monetize inmates, and the more they can ensure you never leave, the more they can monetize you. 

Frankly, it is simply disgusting.  Prisons should NEVER be run like that. EVER.

I'd love to hear how you're going to get people to willingly support "their tax dollars paying to support criminals" -- because that's exactly how the prison lobby will present it.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

The excuse of "we can't afford" it is everywhere in society now, and people need to start understanding that major organizations cannot afford to conduct business on purpose. They're maximizers, and as long as power rests with rich assholes will always trend ever more towards taking cream off the top and then blaming the rest of society for wasting the rest of the cream by not giving it to them.

[wierd]

Turn it on its ear.

Supporting "private prisons" is supporting jail rape. You dont support rape, do you? Because private prisons like it when their inmates rape other inmates-- it increases their charges, meaning they will never leave, and the mental damage to the victim in an incarceration setting makes them more likely to commit additional felonies as well. (Such as, assault with a deadly weapon!)

[deathpunch578]

Also, prison systems as a necessity, wut?

I had a big reply typed out, but my computer crashed and I don't feel like typing it agian.
So what I ment by the prison system part was that prisons get no funding so to stay afloat they need to operate like a business (guess I should have explained that better. Also my personal opinion is that prison systems need to be rehabilitation instead of locking people in cells for x amount of years/months)

That's a terrible idea though; prisons already operate like businesses, and that means working the prisoners as what are effectively Indentured Servants. Which means the longer they stay locked up, the better it is for the prison.

I agree we need to focus on rehabilitation instead of punishment, because punishment is a retarded concept, especially when you look at who goes to prison in the first place; but I don't think extending even more rights to the prisons is at all the solution to the issue. We need to change people away from being angry at criminals to trying to understand and fix them.

And stop arresting people for stupid shit like marijuana and locking them up. It shouldn't be more societally questionable to scream "420 blaze it" in the public square than it is to scream "blood and soil" in the same place.

I said they need to get funding because they operate like a business, not the other way around.

Idea being, I assume, that if they get funding they no longer have to operate like a business and can consider the rehabilitation methods instead of trying to turn a profit?

Just trying to clarify here.

basically, but there then needs to be regulation to stop this from happening.

The "runs like a business" nature of many prisons, is why there are so many problems in the US penal system. (Or at least, a VERY big contributor.)  Prisons like that monetize inmates, and the more they can ensure you never leave, the more they can monetize you. 

Frankly, it is simply disgusting.  Prisons should NEVER be run like that. EVER.

I'd love to hear how you're going to get people to willingly support "their tax dollars paying to support criminals" -- because that's exactly how the prison lobby will present it.

it won't be for prisoner's rights, its more like taking the ideas of mouse utopia and actually applying them. I imagine the prison lobbies will present it as "Hey, we need more funding to do our job."

[wierd]

Not what Trekkin meant by "prison lobby"

he meant the paid spokesman for the rich bastard who owns 30 facilities, who will have his money flow cut by having to abolish certain offensive practices, and the twisted as fuck message he will pay some advertising douchebag to feed to the public to convince them that prison rape is good for society.

[Trekkin]

Turn it on its ear.

Supporting "private prisons" is supporting jail rape. You dont support rape, do you? Because private prisons like it when their inmates rape other inmates-- it increases their charges, meaning they will never leave, and the mental damage to the victim in an incarceration setting makes them more likely to commit additional felonies as well.

I don't, but I can tell you that a depressing number of people do. "If you don't want to do the time, don't do the crime", law-and-order types tend not to be too bothered by that sort of thing -- look at the cop who taunted a convicted young man with a tube of personal lubricant after he was sentenced.

Besides, there are ready-made justifications for this sort of thing. If you want a twisted message, "would you rather all those rapists be out raping innocent people" would work. They're terrible reasons, but people will use them to hide their own secret wish that all "those people" make each other suffer for being criminals and therefore worse people than they are.

In essence, I think you may be underestimating how terribly spiteful and bigoted people can be.

[smjjames]

Mouse utopia? You mean like plenty of the yummiest food ever, the best mouse comforts? oh and don’t forget the sexy female mice.

Anyways, turns out that back in January, WH counsel McGahn told Trump that he believed that Flynn had lied to the FBI (and McGahn was doing his job). So, Trump did know of it at the time. http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/04/politics/wh-lawyer-told-trump-flynn-misled-fbi-pence/index.html

[deathpunch578]

Mouse utopia? You mean like plenty of the yummiest food ever, the best mouse comforts? oh and don’t forget the sexy female mice.

more of the heroine water side of it, put people in a horrible place and they will more often then not use substances in order to cope with the situation. just use that to get the anti-drug lobbyist behind it.

[wierd]

Turn it on its ear.

Supporting "private prisons" is supporting jail rape. You dont support rape, do you? Because private prisons like it when their inmates rape other inmates-- it increases their charges, meaning they will never leave, and the mental damage to the victim in an incarceration setting makes them more likely to commit additional felonies as well.

I don't, but I can tell you that a depressing number of people do. "If you don't want to do the time, don't do the crime", law-and-order types tend not to be too bothered by that sort of thing -- look at the cop who taunted a convicted young man with a tube of personal lubricant after he was sentenced.

Besides, there are ready-made justifications for this sort of thing. If you want a twisted message, "would you rather all those rapists be out raping innocent people" would work. They're terrible reasons, but people will use them to hide their own secret wish that all "those people" make each other suffer for being criminals and therefore worse people than they are.

In essence, I think you may be underestimating how terribly spiteful and bigoted people can be.

I never once thought you did-- it was an example counter-argument to the kind of shit I expect from "Fiscally motivated" mouthpieces in favor of private prisons.

[Trekkin]

Turn it on its ear.

Supporting "private prisons" is supporting jail rape. You dont support rape, do you? Because private prisons like it when their inmates rape other inmates-- it increases their charges, meaning they will never leave, and the mental damage to the victim in an incarceration setting makes them more likely to commit additional felonies as well.

I don't, but I can tell you that a depressing number of people do. "If you don't want to do the time, don't do the crime", law-and-order types tend not to be too bothered by that sort of thing -- look at the cop who taunted a convicted young man with a tube of personal lubricant after he was sentenced.

Besides, there are ready-made justifications for this sort of thing. If you want a twisted message, "would you rather all those rapists be out raping innocent people" would work. They're terrible reasons, but people will use them to hide their own secret wish that all "those people" make each other suffer for being criminals and therefore worse people than they are.

In essence, I think you may be underestimating how terribly spiteful and bigoted people can be.

I never once thought you did-- it was an example counter-argument to the kind of shit I expect from "Fiscally motivated" mouthpieces in favor of private prisons.

I get that. My point was that arguments from prisoner well-being aren't going to fly with people who want prisoners to suffer, and that sentiment is so prevalent that the opposition to reducing prison rape might well be politically relevant, just coded in a way that lets them couch it in financial or judicial terms. It's simple to twist the statistics, too. Hand the bigots a line like "inmates are one hundred and twenty-five times as likely to take part in unwanted sexual conduct as the general population" (carefully worded to include victims in those blocs) and they'll be adamant that those people, those others, stay behind bars where they can't get at them and theirs while privately cheering that the scum have got what's coming to them. Disgusting, yes, but that's what you've got to work with to fix prisons.

[Dunamisdeos]

Now I'll preface this by stating that our current prison system is wholly detestable, but I've also been told that our concept of prison without some form of monetization is unsustainable.

I have looked into this not at all, what do you more knowledgeable folks feel about that? Would a revamp of our prison system into rehabilitation centers put a large strain on us? How do you remove the profiteering and keep the funding at the same level?

The moral/ethical aspects (or lack of consideration thereof) seem clear. What are you guys' practical thoughts on the matter?

[wierd]

Turn it on its ear.

Supporting "private prisons" is supporting jail rape. You dont support rape, do you? Because private prisons like it when their inmates rape other inmates-- it increases their charges, meaning they will never leave, and the mental damage to the victim in an incarceration setting makes them more likely to commit additional felonies as well.

I don't, but I can tell you that a depressing number of people do. "If you don't want to do the time, don't do the crime", law-and-order types tend not to be too bothered by that sort of thing -- look at the cop who taunted a convicted young man with a tube of personal lubricant after he was sentenced.

Besides, there are ready-made justifications for this sort of thing. If you want a twisted message, "would you rather all those rapists be out raping innocent people" would work. They're terrible reasons, but people will use them to hide their own secret wish that all "those people" make each other suffer for being criminals and therefore worse people than they are.

In essence, I think you may be underestimating how terribly spiteful and bigoted people can be.

I never once thought you did-- it was an example counter-argument to the kind of shit I expect from "Fiscally motivated" mouthpieces in favor of private prisons.

I get that. My point was that arguments from prisoner well-being aren't going to fly with people who want prisoners to suffer, and that sentiment is so prevalent that the opposition to reducing prison rape might well be politically relevant, just coded in a way that lets them couch it in financial or judicial terms. It's simple to twist the statistics, too. Hand the bigots a line like "inmates are twenty-five times as likely to take part in unwanted sexual conduct as the general population" (carefully worded to include victims in those blocs) and they'll be adamant that those people, those others, stay behind bars where they can't get at them and theirs.

It is a sad world we live in, because this is indeed the truth ^^

About the only way out of that, is to have 10 second ads with short messages from "petty criminals"  (EG, white collar types) who get violently raped in prison, contract HIV and worse from it, and have no out, and no public sympathy.  Give that blind dehumanization a real human face. (as many as possible.)  Preferably one that looks just like theirs.


Dunam'--

The "Not sustainable" cry is a half-truth.  What they really mean is "Not sustainable at the current rate, and length of stay of incarceration."

That is to say, not sustainable when we throw 18 year olds in jail for having a nickle bag of pot, and other absurd offenses, tries as if they were columbian drug lords with a whole airplane full of vacuum packed weed.

[smjjames]

You mean the behavioral sink thing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioral_sink , only problem is that it's controversial whether it actually applies to humans and it doesn't sound like the rats that were the test subjects were subjected to prison-like conditions and routine since they were free to do as they wanted.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

The massive externality of suffering both monetary and otherwise from recidivism is worth more than paying out the nose for good prisons. The argument that the prisons have to be monetized is just more devil's bargain bullshit from executives. Never forget that we're generally talking about people who are addicted to the process of making money, and that any opportunity to make more looks good to them, no matter how pathetic or consequential.