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[Teneb]

Isn’t Libertarian more leftish? They’re left leaning on some things and right leaning on others but in general they just want the government to minimally exist and not stick its fingers into everything.

First, the USA doesn't have a Left, just Right and RIGHT.

Economic neoliberalism (or, for the Murricans, Libertarianism) is usually associated with the political Right due to being pretty much Capitalism+. Using the Left = Communism, Right = Capitalism 20th Century definition from when Communism vs Capitalism was A Thing, obviously.

Keeping in mind, of course, that the Left-Right means of organizing politics originated in the French Revolution  and thus why the fuck do we even use it at this point, it doesn't even fit the Communism x Capitalism theme because neither of those actually existed at the time.

Fakeedit: Damned ninjas

[martinuzz]

US Social Libertarianism (like for example Noam Chomsky) is close to anarchism / anarcho-syndicalism, and generally more left-leaning than right.

[redwallzyl]

American libertarians are basically as close as possible to anarchists/Anarcho capitalists without being quite that level.

As an actual anarchist, let me assure you: not even a little.

Probably more ancap really then traditional anarchist. With minimum government instead of none and fanatically individualistic.

[Trekkin]

American libertarians are basically as close as possible to anarchists/Anarcho capitalists without being quite that level.

As an actual anarchist, let me assure you: not even a little.

Probably more ancap really then traditional anarchist. With minimum government instead of none and fanatically individualistic.

A lot of them are various flavors of minarchist, yes.

[Teneb]

Ok, this thread is running fast, but Libertarianism/Neoliberalism is not Anarchocapitalism.

Skipping the finer details because, again, thread is moving...

Neoliberalism (Libertarianism is a dumb word and I'm not using it more than I have to) defends that the Government of a country should not interfere in its own economy... except when the corporations get into trouble or a foreign corp tries to make a move for said country's market. Then the government totally has to step in.

In anarchocapitalism, there is no Government. Everything is made from contracts between individuals (and corporations count as individuals for this). Your house is on fire and you need it put out? Better have contracted a fire insurance or be ready to cough up a bunch of cash to have it put out.

Bias: I am an anarchist and dislike the anarchosufixes.

[Maximum Spin]

Mainstream US libertarians are incredibly statist. Libertarianism isn't the same thing as neoliberalism, though.

[birdy51]

I have clearly lost track of ideologies... ;.;

[smjjames]

Libertarianism and Neoliberalism aren’t even the same thing either Teneb.

[Trekkin]

I have clearly lost track of ideologies... ;.;

Everyone has. At this point, every possible ideological label out there has been used to smear everyone who isn't defiantly "reclaiming" or "redefining" it from everyone else doing the same thing but with a differently formatted manifesto, because everyone believes they're the only unique snowflake who can't be described by the neat and dismissive labels they're happily creating for everyone else.

[smjjames]

Wasnt the ‘if you didn’t pay the fire department or whoever, they wouldn’t put out your burning house’ an actual thing back in the 19th century or something? It had a heck of a lot more to do with corruption and capitalism than anarcho-whatever.

[redwallzyl]

Part of the confusion is that the USA doesn't use the same words for stuff as the rest of the world. Cus Merica!

[Maximum Spin]

Part of the confusion is that the USA doesn't use the same words for stuff as the rest of the world. Cus Merica!

That's not even a little bit how it works.

[Starver]

Wasnt the ‘if you didn’t pay the fire department or whoever, they wouldn’t put out your burning house’ an actual thing back in the 19th century or something? It had a heck of a lot more to do with corruption and capitalism than anarcho-whatever.

https://wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/Charcoal_Wednesday

[Tawa]

I've seen a lot of arguments about it and the only conclusion I can draw is that nobody knows what neoliberalism is. Some people will tell you it's Reagan and Thatcher style trickle-down, with "liberal" in this case being the 1800s sense and the idea being it's a revival of minimal-intervention economics. Other people will tell you it's Obama and Clinton center/center-left capitalism, with "liberal" here being the American definition, and the "neo" referring to the idea that this is the hip, modern style of liberalism. I've seen one guy claim it was the recurring thread between Clinton, Reagan, Lincoln, and Genghis Khan. For some reason, people in the former camp avoid the term and use the second definition in a derogatory fashion; people in the second camp seem to either have no real opinion on the topic or have a thing about "reclaiming" the term, usually to refer to their own position in a positive manner. I think the last guy was joking, but you can never be sure.

The split definitely arises from the American definition of "liberal", though. The Clinton definition seems to have arisen from people being unaware of the European definition when they heard the word "neoliberal".

[smjjames]

I don’t even know what ‘liberal in the 19th century sense’ is supposed to mean. Also, Genghis Khan, what even?