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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4201279 times)

wierd

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Admittedly, there are some EOs that really, REALLY DO need to be rescinded, or at the very least, revisited.
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Max™

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I would just like to point out the massive problem the US has with incarceration as the majority of cases are settled with plea bargains which often screw over people. Its the carceral state, we very much still have a police to prison system.
That and the whole "possession of a dime of weed==same penalties as possession of actual hard drugs for years" thing which would be a great spot for nullification to come up: disproportionately targets the poor and minorities, unreasonable classification of a mild hallucinogenic alongside heavy opioids and worse, targeting the dude who wants to blaze up so sitcoms seem funny rather than saying shit about the massive opioid epidemic, and so forth.

I wasn't being sarcastic about it, and it is only one reason I am not an ideal juror, but yes I did indeed bring it up because fuck the "rubber stamp juror" idea in the ass.
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smjjames

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Admittedly, there are some EOs that really, REALLY DO need to be rescinded, or at the very least, revisited.

Well yeah, I'm not saying that we shouldn't rescind any EO, I meant getting into the mentality the Republicans and Trump have of "Reverse EVERYTHING Obama did, no matter how common sense they are."
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wierd

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[puts on the "that guy" hat]

Ironically, abuses of the executive and judicial systems of these kinds were exactly the reason that jury nullification power was extended to jurors, as part of their ultimate authority on finding of fact in criminal proceedings. That this power was flagrantly abused to pardon murderers, rapists, and worse due to race and popularity is a major factor in why the courts do not want this power invoked, and why the SCOTUS ruled that jurors may not invoke it.  Bad apples spoiled the bunch, through flagrant abuse of a power, hilariously intended to be a bulwark against abuse of power.

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Trekkin

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[puts on the "that guy" hat]

Ironically, abuses of the executive and judicial systems of these kinds were exactly the reason that jury nullification power was extended to jurors, as part of their ultimate authority on finding of fact in criminal proceedings. That this power was flagrantly abused to pardon murderers, rapists, and worse due to race and popularity is a major factor in why the courts do not want this power invoked, and why the SCOTUS ruled that jurors may not invoke it.  Bad apples spoiled the bunch, through flagrant abuse of a power, hilariously intended to be a bulwark against abuse of power.

That's not entirely true. Jury nullification is an inevitable result of protecting jurors for being punished for finding "incorrectly." In other words, as long as the jury's verdict must be accepted as rendered, there's no way to rule out verdicts based on how they were reached.

It was never "extended" to anyone. It's always been an integral part of the justice system, which is why it's so difficult to avoid except by not telling jurors they can do it.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2017, 12:06:30 pm by Trekkin »
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wierd

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Not entirely true.

The 7th amendment was worded to prevent the courts from overturning the finding of fact by jurors.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventh_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

There is history there, as you rightly point out, due to english courts punishing jurors for "finding wrongly." (In opposition to the court's direction, despite what is actually in the Magna carta.)

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No free man shall be captured, and or imprisoned, or disseised of his freehold, and or of his liberties, or of his free customs, or be outlawed, or exiled, or in any way destroyed, nor will we proceed against him by force or proceed against him by arms, but by the lawful judgment of his peers, or by the law of the land.

For a trivial offence, a free man shall be fined only in proportion to the degree of his offence, and for a serious offence correspondingly, but not so heavily as to deprive him of his livelihood. In the same way, a merchant shall be spared his merchandise, and a husbandman the implements of his husbandry, if they fall upon the mercy of a royal court. None of these fines shall be imposed except by the assessment on oath of reputable men of the neighbourhood.

to which Wikipedia states the reaction of the courts were as follows:

Quote
Largely, the earliest juries returned verdicts in accordance with the judge or the Crown. This was achieved either by "packing the jury" or by "writ of attaint". Juries were packed by hand-selecting or by bribing the jury so as to return the desired verdict. This was a common tactic in cases involving treason or sedition. In addition, the writ of attaint allowed a judge to retry the case in front of a second jury when the judge believed the first jury returned a "false verdict". If the second jury returned a different verdict, that verdict was imposed and the first jury was imprisoned or fined.

In opposition to this, the US system enshrined the 7th amendment:

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In Suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any Court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.

The intention here was quite clearly to prevent the kinds of abuses that were taking place under the english system previously cited, and did so by ceding absolute power in the jury.

Personally, I think this blurb on nullification from Wikipedia about sums it up:

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Standard jury trial practice in the United States during the Founding Era and for several decades afterward was to argue all issues of law in the presence of the jury, so that the jury heard the same arguments the bench did in reaching his rulings on motions. This is evidenced by such decisions as the 1839 case Stettinius v. U.S., in which it was held that "The defense can argue law to the jury before the court gives instructions."[21] Later, judges began to demand the parties submit motions in writing, often before the jury was empaneled, to be argued and decided without the jury being present. This transition began with motions in limine, to exclude evidence on which it wa.s felt the jury should not hear the argument because they would be informed of the evidence to be excluded. Later that was expanded to include all legal argument, so that today, that earlier practice of arguing law before the jury has been largely forgotten, and judges even declare mistrials or overturn verdicts if legal argument is made to the jury.

It quite clearly establishes the trend from "Fully informed and empowered jury", to "Weakened jury, empowered judiciary", for the benefit and convenience of the court, with many of the same maladies that existed in the corrupt english common law system. (aside from outright bribery that is. Instead we have removal for cause to pack juries, and mistrials to retry when "false verdicts" are rendered, with "contempt of court" levied against jurors.)

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smjjames

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In what would be interesting news to Republicans, Tony Podesta (brother of John Podesta) quit the Podesta Group lobbying firm this morning in light of the new information. There's no indication yet that Mueller's investigation is also heading towards the Clinton campaign, so, remains to be seen if that will end up being significant.
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sluissa

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Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

spoilered because it's a dumb semantics argument. Plz ignore.
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Max™

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I should indeed have specified "in this case" you are correct.
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Dunamisdeos

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How likely is it that they will find these two guilty of some kind of wrongdoing that isn't actually related to illegal actions taken during Trump's campaign? All the reports I read seem to steer well clear of alluding that they are going to actually connect this to Trump doing illegal Russian things to win the election.
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EnigmaticHat

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CNN put forth an interesting theory today.

Basically, the special counsel released a document describing Papadopoulos as an "proactive cooperator" who would be less useful if documents relating to his case weren't sealed.  A CNN analyist believes that Papadopoulos has been wearing a wire and there's nothing else that wording could possibly mean.  And he thinks Papadopoulos has been doing this for the past 3 months.
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Dunamisdeos

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Doesn't it seem like the worst idea possible to come out and plaster that theory on national news? That's like Geraldo drawing troop movement maps on TV.
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EnigmaticHat

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I thought the same thing.  I guess the idea is that since he's now publicly known to have pleaded guilty and AFAIK got immunity, Trump's lawyers must already know Papadopoulos is untrustworthy?  Or maybe they just wanted to be the first person to say it.
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"T-take this non-euclidean geometry, h-humanity-baka. I m-made it, but not because I l-li-l-like you or anything! I just felt s-sorry for you, b-baka."
You misspelled seance.  Are possessing Draignean?  Are you actually a ghost in the shell? You have to tell us if you are, that's the rule

MetalSlimeHunt

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I don't imagine Trump's lawyers consider anybody trustworthy, including each other and their client.
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Trekkin

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I'm just wondering when pardons will happen. Given Trump's usual operational disarray, I expect we'll see pardons for all sorts of people, living, dead, and imaginary -- including at least three people whose names sound like, but are not, Papadopoulos. And Arpiao will probably get another pardon just because "we love Sheriff Joe, don't we?"

Seriously, though, the response from the White House just screams "holding pattern" to me. Trump was fuming and unraveling before; surely he must be close to snapping now.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2017, 09:39:42 pm by Trekkin »
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