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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 4461153 times)

Descan

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Was Nixon president when the U.S. was funding the Mujahideen (and possibly bin Laden) in the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan?

If so; yes. By not funding them, assuming that Americans funding was critical to bin Laden surviving create al Qaeda and organize the hijacking.

But I think that was Reagan.

REAGAN CAUSED 9/11
« Last Edit: October 26, 2017, 06:07:23 pm by Descan »
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sluissa

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Was Nixon president when the U.S. was funding the Mujahideen (and possibly bin Laden) in the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan?

If so; yes. By not funding them, assuming that Americans funding was critical to bin Laden surviving create al Qaeda and organize the hijacking.

But I think that was Reagan.

REAGAN CAUSED 9/11


nixon resigned 5 years before the soviets invaded afghanistan and that went on for around 10 years. Carter, Reagan and Bush Sr. all dealt with it.
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Loud Whispers

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Fucking Charlemagne caused 9/11

pikachu17

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Damn you, Charlemagne!
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Rolan7

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It was some butterfly.  DESTROY ALL LEPIDOPTERA

This doesn't seem like much of a gaff, though.  The Civil War was a long time in the making.
I wouldn't *expect* Andrew Jackson of all people to prevent it, but it's not a ridiculous thing to wonder.
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EnigmaticHat

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Okay but let me just put this out there, American planes were being hijacked in the years leading up to 9/11 and everyone was still (understandably) shocked when 9/11 happened.  Even we had stopped funding the Mujahideen, it wouldn't have been to prevent 9/11.  That would be a completely insane thought process.  Neither us nor the soviets ever expected Afghanistan to pose a credible threat to our homelands.  People have questioned if Clinton could prevented 9/11 because it happened so shortly after his presidency and he plausibly could have seen warning signs.

In the same way, Andrew Jackson might have been able to recognize slavery as a divisive issue, and he might have been able to recognize that the tensions between north and south were growing*.  But it would have been a bit of a leap, that far in advance, to do things specifically to avert a civil war.  It would be like asking "what could Andrew Jackson have done to prevent a third war with the British?"  Could it have happened?  Sure, but at that time both of those things were equally hypothetical.

*Of course, we're talking about Andrew Jackson.  So increased tension just means increased opportunities for him to personally beat people up.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2017, 08:42:32 pm by EnigmaticHat »
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Lord Shonus

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Okay but let me just put this out there, American planes were being hijacked in the years leading up to 9/11 and everyone was still (understandably) shocked when 9/11 happened.  Even we had stopped funding the Mujahideen, it wouldn't have been to prevent 9/11.  That would be a completely insane thought process.  Neither us nor the soviets ever expected Afghanistan to pose a credible threat to our homelands.  People have questioned if Clinton could prevented 9/11 because it happened so shortly after his presidency and he plausibly could have seen warning signs.

It wasn't "he could have seen warning signs". It was a case of "Clinton DID see warning signs". Clinton mentioned Bin Laden as a thread during a speech in Australia on 9/10/01. How much he could have done to prevent it is another question.
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RedKing

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Especially since Jackson was pro-slavery. His "solution" would probably have been to make slavery legal nationally. Lionizing Jackson was honestly probably a dogwhistle.
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Rolan7

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Especially since Jackson was pro-slavery. His "solution" would probably have been to make slavery legal nationally. Lionizing Jackson was honestly probably a dogwhistle.
Yeah, that's what I'd expect based on his treatment of the native people.
I wouldn't *expect* Andrew Jackson of all people to prevent it

The offense here isn't the idea that a president could have foreseen and prevented a future crisis, it's that-
Hold the phone
Trump is actually blaming Jackson for the Civil War.
That might be only partially true, but it's not entirely wrong.  And also, fuck that guy.
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Descan

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To be fair, I was fairly hedgy about whether Americans not funding the Mujahideen in the 80s would actually... You know, accomplish anything about 9/11. There's a lot of ifs, buts, and ands, and even assuming all the dominoes are *there* (Such as whether the American funding had any influence on bin Laden surviving and becoming a key player) there's always the question of a) whether the American funding actually was the key bit, and would otherwise stop bin Laden instead of merely postpone it or... Just, nothing. And b) whether something else would fill the void even if that were the case, it's not like America is the only source of funding in the world. Bin Laden was *rich,* just to start. And Saudi Arabian, which might have gone "Hey, let's support those guys! For reasons!"
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MetalSlimeHunt

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This is my standard reminder that the Mujahadeen were not a united organization and that while elements of it went on to become the Taliban, others went on to become the Northern Alliance under Ahmad Shah Massoud, who opposed theocracy and tried to drive Afghanistan towards being a modern nation. As well as having been bin Laden's greatest enemy, to the point that he was assassinated two days before 9/11.

So "the US funded the Taliban" isn't really an accurate statement.
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Rolan7

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Indeed.  The "warriors of god" were not, in fact, united behind any social initiative.

Yeah actually this is my trigger to stop drunkposting, because said warriors were very much united against "social initiatives", and very little else.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2017, 10:34:24 pm by Rolan7 »
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Reelya

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Okay but let me just put this out there, American planes were being hijacked in the years leading up to 9/11 and everyone was still (understandably) shocked when 9/11 happened.  Even we had stopped funding the Mujahideen, it wouldn't have been to prevent 9/11.  That would be a completely insane thought process.  Neither us nor the soviets ever expected Afghanistan to pose a credible threat to our homelands.  People have questioned if Clinton could prevented 9/11 because it happened so shortly after his presidency and he plausibly could have seen warning signs.

The Bush Snr / Clinton era does deserve a lot of blame, but it wasn't for funding the Mujahedeen, it was for dropping the ball and stopping the support for Ahmed Shah Mahmoud when he was fighting the Taliban. As soon as the Russians were beat both sides of politics completely stopped giving a fuck what happened to the Afghanis. Post-Vietnam America basically can't be assed to follow through. Imagine if the debate in 1960 had been "we've been in South Korea too long - fuck em let's go home now!"

Basically it was meddling combined with a lack of will to follow through to the end, the same thing we're saw post-2003 Iraq and post-2001 Afghanistan.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2017, 10:39:10 pm by Reelya »
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Culise

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Okay but let me just put this out there, American planes were being hijacked in the years leading up to 9/11 and everyone was still (understandably) shocked when 9/11 happened.  Even we had stopped funding the Mujahideen, it wouldn't have been to prevent 9/11.  That would be a completely insane thought process.  Neither us nor the soviets ever expected Afghanistan to pose a credible threat to our homelands.  People have questioned if Clinton could prevented 9/11 because it happened so shortly after his presidency and he plausibly could have seen warning signs.

It wasn't "he could have seen warning signs". It was a case of "Clinton DID see warning signs". Clinton mentioned Bin Laden as a thread during a speech in Australia on 9/10/01. How much he could have done to prevent it is another question.
Here's the catch, though; the warning signs didn't point to the actual events of 9/11.  The threat from Bin Laden and the Taliban in 2001 pre-September must be put in the context of their then-most-devastating attack on the United States at the time: the bombing of the USS Cole.  This occurred not in the US, but in the Middle East, specifically while the USS Cole was at anchor in Aden harbor.  The attack was carried through by two suicide bombers in a fiberglass boat.  Likewise, there had been threats to the World Trade Center complex before 9/11 by Al Qaeda, but the chief context for this was the failed bombing in 1993 which used a truck and was carried out without connection to Bin Laden.  Similarly, the greatest act of terrorism on US soil before then was another truck bombing, this at Oklahoma City by a domestic terrorist, and the greatest single attack overall being another truck bombing in Beirut 1983, aimed by suicide bombers of unconfirmed (typically presumed to be Hezbollah's precursors) origin at barracks for US soldiers operating with the multinational force.  Carrying further, hijackings of large passenger craft, while not unheard of before 9/11, were not typically used for suicide attacks.  Most often, a hijacked airliner would be landed at some third-world location with the passengers and ransom demands sent out; they were used for fundraising and/or prisoner exchanges, rather than as weapons.  Attacks on airliners tended to be directly aimed at the plane itself, as in the Lockerbie case.  This unfortunately played a significant role in how the 9/11 hijackings were handled, as I recall: there was an expectation before the first attack went through that the hijackers would open negotiations and that the passengers could be safely released.  While a threat could be ascertained from Bin Laden and Al Qaeda, ultimately, it appeared before 9/11 to primarily aimed at US assets abroad, particularly in the Middle East, and utilize primarily assets that could be obtained and controlled from the planning phase rather than assets seized as a part of the attack itself. 

As for the question on whether American funding was decisive, it's actually worth noting in further support of arguments already posed that Saudi Arabia *did* in fact fund the Afghani mujahideen both during and after the Soviet intervention, and was in fact their second-largest bankroller after the US itself.  In addition, Pakistan chipped in a bit as well as serving as a channel, Iran played its own cards during and after in opposition to both Soviet and Saudi influence, and China also provided training and other relatively minor support due to the ongoing Sino-Soviet split.  It wasn't just "because reasons" as was so eloquently put, either; Saudi Arabia saw Soviet encroachment on the Middle East as a significant threat, cordially detested Soviet-supported Ba'athist Iraq in spite of their common Iranian enemy, and like the US, saw Afghanistan as a way to poke the Soviets in the eye while supporting Sunni factions against Iranian-supported Shi'a factions and atheistic Communists.  In other words, I suppose you could blame the US for funding them, but as asserted, it isn't enough to say that US funding alone was sufficient to cause 9/11. 
« Last Edit: October 26, 2017, 11:38:45 pm by Culise »
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Loud Whispers

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Especially since Jackson was pro-slavery. His "solution" would probably have been to make slavery legal nationally. Lionizing Jackson was honestly probably a dogwhistle.
That in all likelihood wouldn't have solved the growing gulf between North and South, as making it legal in federal law would not remove the sheer angst at the Northerners trying to live with an economy to the South of them that is so radically different that they can't really stand to live with it
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